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  • Hey guys, I'm going to keep my opinions to myself until we get a discussion going, but I'd like to discuss ships from a WRITING point of view, and with open minds. Based on what the books seem to lead up to, and based on what we know baout Shannon, and based on clues, and based on what we know makes a good story, what do you guys think of the ships and how they'll actually turn out? I don't want "MY SHIP IS BETTER", I want good, solid reasons- Based on what we know about stories and how they work.This is for wannabe writers, hehe. Any takers? 

    -SRM

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    • Taker number 1 is here for duty

      Okay, I'm going to start with Sophitz. I honestly think Sophie shouldn't end up with anyone. Or since she's currently "with" Fitz, i hope they break up. Here's why.

      So far, Sophie hasn't had much character development. She's been pretty much the same since book 1, and for a main character like her, that's a bit of a problem. She's also been crushing on Fitz since book one. So, since she now got what she wanted, i hope she sees that she doesn't need anybody. Stepping away from Fitz and standing on her own would kind of be symbolic of her stepping away from the anxious, shy girl she was before and growing up to be the Moonlark Everyone expects her to be.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • oooh that's a very good point. I ship Sokeefe, but one thing I like about that relationship is she's very much the boss- With Fitz, she's just oogling over him. 

      What's funny is I was just talking to a friend who really dislikes Keeper the other night about character developement. She's read the first 1 and 1/2 books, and it's funny how it felt like we were talking about two different people because sophie has changed so much. But I agree-  she DEFINITELY hasn't changed as much as she should. And I think Fitz is one of the last thing's that's holding her back from that. She's still concerned about what he thinks of her- She showed us her boldness with Dex, and fighting with Keefe, but with Fitz she's still anxius and concerned with her looks and how she acts...like a silly crush. I think she's on the brink of getting rid of that, and when it happens it'll grow her character so much more. 

      -SRM 

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    • I'd also like to spend some time discussing ships nobody seems to really care about, cause theyre all screaming about Sophitz and Sokeefe

      Like Tiana/Diana/Keefiana

      At this point, I feel like Keefiana isn't a good idea. Yeah, they would be cute together, but Keefe's already stated that he doesn't like her, and Biana's hinted that she's possibly getting over him. And Sophie just got together with Fitz. If Keefe started liking Biana now, she'd be a rebound for him, and she definitely deserves better.

      Diana. Before Flashback, this never seemed like a possibility for me, because Dex was hung up on Sophie. Now, he's able to joke about their "incident", and he's also moving on. However, he says he's used to working alone. I feel like, even if he can joke about it, his rejection from Sophie would be too fresh to start a relatinship in the kotlc timeline. And, he just got over hating the vackers a few months/a year ago. I think Biana likes him as a friend, and Dex feels the same way, especially since it would feel kind of abrupt if they just up and got together. Sophitz has been slowburning since book 1. Dex just started liking the Vackers book 4.

      Tiana time. Tam is a twin, he was "banished", and while it's not strictly forbidden, i don't think being a Shade would help other's view of their relationship. And people may think that this would stop it all together. But Biana has already been set apart from the other Vackers by Alvar, who spoke to her when he talked about the Vacker legacy. She's brave, talented, and fierce. If she found someone she loved, i don't think she would let a possible "bad match" stop her. Shannon likes to make ships really obvious, and the characters oblivious (cough, sophie). Tam doesn't seem like the kind of person who would realize if someone liked him, especially based on how he reacted to being talked about by Marella and Biana in Nightfall. And both are pretty casual people, so their realtionship wouldn't be as lovey-dovey as Sophitz or Sokeefe

      Backyard Windchimes (sorry for the long comment)

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    • What'd you think of flashback?? I'm both amazed that shannon kept me so interested even when literally nothing was happening, and also disappointed that none of the questions I was expecting to be answered were answered. 

      -SRM

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    • ooh, I'm going to reread your comment very slowly now- Nice discussion topic, lemme think about this

      -SRM

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    • So, for Keefiana- I both 1. don't think it would be a good idea and 2. can't see it occuring naturally. You basically said 1, so I'm going to elaborate on 2- First of all, Keefe. He and Fitz have been best friends for years, and he's been around Biana for a long time, with no chemistry. He hinted to Sophie that he goes out of his way not to tease Biana so that she doesn't get the wrong idea. It would be VERY unnatural for Shannon to go back on that. Also, Keefe is very loyal- unless soemthing happens between him and Sophie, he's not just going to stop liking her. He's an Empath- he's known she's liked Fitz from the start, and them being public isn't going to change how he feels. Even if Sophitz was to stay til the end, it would take him a while to move on. I can't see him just flipping to Biana.

      And then there is Biana. Biana and Keefe are actually in similar situations, if you think about it... whoa, I just realized that... gimme a sec to elaborate

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    • I honestly don't think Sophie should be with anybody. I just can't see her with someone in that sense. But if she had to among her friends, it should be Tam or Keefe. I know there's nothing between Tam and Sophie, but i'm saying the way he acts is a good kinda guy for sophie. The thing is, Fitz is too much trouble to be worth it. He;s got this horrible anger issue, and sophie just keeps forgiving him everytime he goes all rage on her. She keeps forgiving everything he does and that makes Fitz keep doing what he does. Another thing is Sophie takes things too seriously with him, with Keefe and her other friends she can fight with them and make fun of them and joke around, it's natural and all. She feels at ease around her friends. But with Fitz, she practically all self-conscious and questioning her every move. I honestly think she has to let go, because he's not really worth it. Also why now! There in the middle of a a huge life and death situation and they are wasting time on crushes and stuff. I agree they all needed to have a break and joke around after all that pressure, but it's messing with sophie's head. SHe doesn't think straight, and is worrying about the wrong things. It'll be her ultimate downfall.

      But I guess this is the writers story and no matter how logical something may sound, the writer decides based on what she feels and thinks not entirely on logic.

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    • Now that I think about it, Biana and Keefe are in very similar situations, but they are very different people. Biana likes Keef while realizing he likes Sophie, and Keefe likes Sophie while realizing she likes Fitz. But here's the difference- Biana is the kind of person who needs ro be someone's number one. And she deserves that. And I think she's realizing tha she's always going to be second to Sophie when it comes to Keefe, and that she can find someone who will love her for who she is. But Keefe is different because his concerns are less for himself and more for being their for Sophie- he's always known she liked Fitz, and always held out hope that someday she'd like him, but in the end, he just wants her to be happy. I'm not sayin either is bad- just different



      hehe its fun to analyze characters

      -SRM (sorry I really need to get an account)

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    • To the person who doesn't think Sophie should be with anyone, I see your viewpoint and I agree to the most part. I have my reasons for Sokeefe (and I will spare you from the explanation lol), and while that is the best for me, ESPECIALLY after this book I think it should NOT happen right away. Sophie needs to break up with Fitz and take time to figure herself out, for the benefit of the story. I think by the end of the series she should be with someone, but I totally agree with your logic- She needs to stand on her own first. This is messing withe her head, and she needs to be able to think clearly and not letting feelins get in the way before she chooses someone. I think Fitzphie thrives off of feelings and hormones and the "need" to feel wanted. And I agree about Fitz.

      -SRM

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    •  I think Fitz needs Sophie. I'm Sophitz

      As a writing point of view, sophitz will happen, it’s the main ship and like her other series the main ship happens in the end. Also like twilight.

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    • @SMR lol it is really fun isn't it?

      ^And i'm not so sure abou that. Shannon herself said nothing was set in stone for either ship (Sophitz and Sokeefe), ad i have a really hard time believing Shannon would brush Keefe aside after all the moments they've had. and to the fandom user 4 comments above me, i agree that she seems very at ease with everyone else. I think she's going to realize that being with Fitz is messing with her head. But i also feel like Keefe might be too protective for her. In my opinion, she's kinda a control freak, and Keefe will do anything to keep her safe, even if it mean sgetting her upset and doing things against her wishes. I don't think she can handle that.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • that is not a very good reason.

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    • Thx Backyard windchimes for replying!

      I disagree about Keefe being too protective. Here's my reasoning-

      Keefe- "Not the hero. Not the one taking charge of everything. Just a guy ready to listen and help and be there for her. A friend. Until she was ready for more."

      I agree with you, in the way that in the PAST Keede has definitely been overprotective. And if nothing changed, that would be a huge problem. But remember their argument in Nightfall? And how she tells him she's sick of him taking charge of everything, and she goes home and rethinks it, and his short story end with those words? We know he's trying to do better- and we know from Flashback that it is working. Sophie gets worried that Keefe is going to take over again, and telepathically calls to him, and he's like "chill, I'm done with all that, I'm at Tiergans". Think about Flashback- there isn't a moment when Keefe takes over. 

      I think, in fact,that here's the one of the differences between Sophitz and Keefoster- In Sophitz, they say they trust each other, but really they don't (as seen in the short story by the way Fitz is acting about Sophie, and how Sophie is still reluctant to tell him things, and worried about how he'll react to things. Personally I think a good test of their trust will be in whether or not she tells himshe's unmatchable, and how he reacts). They're very complacent, "I already trust you" and "we are perfect," meanwhile Keefe and Sophie have had their trust broken before, and are working to fi it. Keefe is trying to be better. They're working toward a goal- they're not perfect, but they are working towards it.

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    • -SRM (oops)

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    • @Flashback-Forever Reads, what is your proof for Sophitz being the main ship? Are you saying that Sophitz has the majority of fans which makes it the main ship, or that because Sophie likes Fitz it's the main ship?

      Just curious

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    • @BlackSwanSMR

      Youre right, i forgot about Flashback, and his short story. He is getting better. And the whole Fitz trust point is why i think they willl break up. I think Sophie will go through Futz, then go to Keefe, and it'll cause some drama, but eventually, Sophie's going to need to choose whether she wants someone ot be with or not.

      Of course, there's the tiny chance of another character coming into the pocture, but i doubt it this late

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • On the Sophitz/Sokeefe debate, it's obvious that Sophie has a crush on Fitz, though to me it's more of a school girl's crush. We learn that emotions manifest in both the head and the heart. So Sophie's mind tells her to love Fitz but her heart is pulling her towards Keefe. And emotions in the heart are said to be stronger. So eventually, and it may take a while I believe Sokeefe will prevail. Besides even in Flashback with Fitz and Sophie confessing feelings, something always felt off between their scenes and there were still plenty of Sokeefe moments. Plus as mentioned earlier, Sophie and Fitz have a sort of newfound trust between them that's very fragile, their bond has never been tested, or broken, whereas with Sokeefe, they've gone through some tough times but in the end their bond simpl strengthens it.

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    • -Jay

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    • ^That's true. I do think she's going to go to Keefe sooner or later, because there was no reason to mention for Keefe to mention the Mind Over Heart thing nly to sophie if it wouldn't be important to her. And yes, i know, Dex, but i don't think that was enough.

      And obviously this isn't part of my reason, bc this is pure opinion, but something about Sokeefe just feels...off. I don't know

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • First of all, I'm incredibly biased for Sokeefe.

      they have fun moments, worry about each other, they really care about each other not in "I hope he/she stays safe", an "I care about you too much to let you go". Well, a loving sort of way, UNFORTUNATELY Sophie does not realize that. Keefe really cares he admits it more than once. The mind can be deceiving, hummingbird paced hearts do not lie.

           Can not pick between Tiana or Tarella, Winh or litz, but Darella is a no.  

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    • ~Karina the Telepath~

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    • "will you love me forever or will we go down in flames" want sophitz to go down in flames & sokeefe 4eva. think of all the sokeefe moments.

      ~Karina the Telepath~

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    • Anyone have any theories WITH PROOFS to back them up for how Fitzphie would end, or why it would stay strong? Not "they're perfect" mushiness or "bc I want Shannon to". Think about it like Shannon does as the author, and based on what we know about their character traits. 

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    • Fitz cares about his family legacy, no matter what. NONE of the Vackers have EVER been a bad match, and he probably won't want to be the first. I'm not saying he would outright give her up, but he would surely be recluant. And he would start demanding Forkle give the names of her bio parents.


      Now let's see Sophie's POV. Her unofficial boyfriend doesn't want to be with her because of a LIST. He wants her biological parents for matchmaking, but for her of him? I know I would be pretty ticked off. Sophie's no exception. Now, while she has her mixed emotions, Keefe is going to be beside her, no matter what happens. Then Sophie and Fitz would break up, since Fitz is still recluant and would want to take it slow, and Sophie's offended. That's when Keefe is going to confess his feelings, and Sophie's going to realize she has the same feelings.


      And BAM, Sokeefe happens!

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    • ^Lol, when i saw BAM i got so excited but then i saw Sokeefe and i was like "aw"

      I do agree though. and i think Fitz is going to try his hardest to accept that Sophie can't be matched and until she can be, they'll be a bad match. But he tends to untintentionally pressure her into things, just like th matchmaking. He repeatedly said how uncool it would be to push her to do something she didn't want to do, but he ended up accidentally doing it. I think that's what's going to happen, and Sophie's not going to know what to do about it.

      I also think Biana's going to be in the picture somehow. She's going to press for details on their relationship, especially if things start going wrong, and Fitz won't talk. She's going to know something's wrong, and if Sophie tells her, she's going to have to make a choice between her brother and her best friend's happiness.

      Which is why i think we are in for a Biana pov next book

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Ugh, my comment deleted so i have to start all over. Sorry if this is a repeat.

      So, back to Keefiana

      So, I'm going to start out by saying we know that Keefe doesn't handle emotional pain very well. He tends to either try and escape (he took sedatives when he thought sophie died in book 1) or do something reckless (such as joining the Neverseen when he found out about his mom). I think Fitzphie is going to hurt him a lot (obviously), and he's going to end up doing both...to Biana (Please don't kill me).

      My main reason is this--Biana has always ben like a little sister to him. He's going to look for something to distract him, and some small part of his mind is going to remember that she likes him (or at least, used to) and see Biana as a way out. If she believes that Sophitz becoming official will leave him free, then she may view the extra time he spends with her (platonic in his mind) as him liking her back. This might reawaken whatever spark was there before Dex and Tam came into the picture (although, the Fitz short story confirms she has a crush on someone, so it's possible it never died). But as they become closer, and as long as Keefe doesn't hear about any Sophitz problems, i think he may start liking her back. Not as much as he loves Sophie, mind you, but a bit. Then, one of two things will happen.

      1. Keefe will confess, and Biana will remember how much he loved Sophie, and realize he'll never love her the same way. She'll know what it's like to never truely get over someone (Keefe himself) and know that she is just a rebound for him--but the choice is between getting a part of what she's always wanted, or choosing someone like Tam or Dex, who are new, but will love her always

      2. Problems will happen in Sophitz Paradise, and Keefe will go running to Sophie, despite the fact that him and Biana are either a). actually together or b). really close. This will leave a broken hearted Biana, and she'll make sure to never make the same mistake again. Cue Dex and Tam swooping in to save the day, and she'll be hesitant, because she's determined this time to make sure she's not going to be thrown away for someone else.

      Again, i hope i didn't offend anybody, these are purely non-biased

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • I'm not technically a writer. I have many stories in my head, but never have the time nor energy to actually put them to paper. But here's my two-cents.

      I like to plan everything out. I have an unwritten fanfiction about two waywards, Anlon and Ciara, and while there are others who either of them could end up with, I have a solid plan that they'd end up together. No amount of fan arguments about why Anlon should be with Laila could ever change that. If Shannon writes the same way I do, she already knows exactly who Sophie will end up with. I personally believe it's Fitz, because he was mentioned first, and in the first book Keefe and Sophie didn't have much of a connection. Perhaps with such a long series, she is making things up as she goes, but sometimes it feels like all the Sokeefe moments are fan service. This is just my opinion, though. I believe that, at least in the beginning, Sophie was meant to be with Fitz.

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    • Honestly, i think plot wise, Shannon plans everything out pretty much to the teeth. However, ship wise, i feel like she's one of those people that won't be influenced by fans, but she doesn't realy know where she's going. I think that's part of the reason that she doesn't read fanfiction or DMs or anything. She doesn't feel like she can stay solid on things she has planned for the story.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • To Backyard Windchimes-

      Nice theory!! I like how you planned everything out and used Keefe's past as an example... And I can see how I would totally believe that if I saw Keefe in a different way.

      However, Keefe is VERY loyal to Sophie. Think about it, he's an Empath- he's known how she's felt about Fitz this entire time. He feels her feeelings every time he's around her, and same with Fitz whenever they touch, not to mention they're best friends. And like he says in Flashback, everyone has been waiting for Fitzphie to happen, knowing it would. He's prepared himself. I can't see Keefe going to anyone else until Sophie and Fitz and married, or something happens and she literally rejects him (not just chooses someone else). He's getting better at not running off and doing reckless things, and he's learning that if he really loves her (friend-wise or other) he'll be there for whatever she needs, even when she doesn't choose him. He may be hurt, but I think he cares about her too much to just run to Biana. He's getting better at being patient. And like I said, he's always known Sophie liked Fitz, which hasn't stopped him from liking and being there for her then- why would it change now?

      Not to mention, he knew Biana when he was having to deal with all the pain from his parents even before the reveal about his mom. And in everything, he's always run to Sophie when he was dealing with hurt- NEVER Biana. Why would that change now, and why wouldn't he have gone to her before? I know, maybe he will with Sophie out of the picture, but I just don't see Biana being the one he'd go to. More likely he'd just keep his emotions locked inside, which he's getting better at doing instead of lashing out. 

      Keefe has changed a lot. Bottom line- I think he's too loyal to Sophie to run to Biana. "I know what matters, Foster- And that's all that matters." -Keefe, Lodestar 

      But I totally respect your argument. It's very thought out and that makes me happy, lol. I want to talk to people who do that. And if the image in my mind of Keefe didn't scream "loyal to Sophie", I would totally agree with you.

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    • AppleBaby12-

      Pshhht, I've never finished a book (though I'm writing one), only short stories, and I don't think not having written doesn't make you a writer. Not an author, because authors have written stories, but if you have that story in your head, you're totally a writer! Whether it's books, or movies, or comics, or whatever. You have writer potential. (Plus nobody said you had to be a author to contribute, just to think like one.)

      I half agreee with you. I think originally, Sophitz was going to be endgame. But I think when Shannon introduced Keefe, and when the story was allowed to keep going, she kind of let the characters take over, knowing she couldn't keep Keefe and Sophie from having chemistry without making the developement seem unnatural. (Probably why Flashback feels a bit unnatural to me...sorry, off topic). She kind of had to do her duty as a writer- she always said in her old blog that her characters run the show. So I think she has a suspicion that Keefe and Sophie will end up together, and she's letting it happen naturally. 

      In other words- I would agree with you if this was book three. But we're on book seven, and she's only proving to us more and more how loyal Keefe is to Sophie as a friend and how much he likes her. I don't think she can stop Sokeefe by now, whether or not that was her origianl intention.

      For instance, in the book I'm writing, I have a character I originally thought would be the love interest. But then I came up with two other characters, and I realized as I wrote and began to think about it that my two characters worked so much better with two other characters who were ust written into the story as friends. My characters kind of decided for themselves. And so I can relate to Shannon, and while I'm not her and Sophie and Fitz may be what she intended, it just seems unlikely that she would let Keefoster continue for this long unless there was something big there. She's just letting her characters decide. She's doing her duty as an author. 

      I'm pretty sure I heard that Shannon said somewhere that her duty as an author is to throw situations at her characters and see how they react.

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    • Also, I love the ideaof a Biana POV! I hadn't even thought of that, I was thinking Tam but no, Biana makes a lot of sense

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    • (random- when I go to"recent activity" it says that I replied seven hours ago when I replied, like, seven minutes ago......weird)

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    • BlackSwanSRM

      You know, i keep forgetting that Keefe is getting better. Probably because he hasn't really been a dynamic character since book four. But you're right, hearing my argument from someone else, i can see the holes. He probably wouldn't go to Biana voluntarily, and i feel like he'd only talk about it with her if she pressed him hard. And he is very loyal to Sophie...but i don't know, something about Keefe just...

      Keefe doesn't have very high self esteem, for understandable reasons. Especially with a possible deal he made with Alden to let Sophitz happen, i feel like he'd think that either Sophie didn't love him the same way, or that she thought Fitz was better--which would go right along with his past, and just seem right to him, because his father always said he wished Keefe were a Vacker, and Keefe himself wished he was a Vacker. So the idea that the most important elf in the lost cities would prefer the Golden Boy just makes sense. So he's definitely going to stay away, but i feel like he'll need an outlet--maybe not Biana, but somebody, or something.

      On the other hand, he loves Sophie so much, that he probably feels that he's betraying her should he get that close to anyone else. So he probably wont let himself become that confortable with anyone else but Sophie, until Sophitz breaks up (which i'm pretty sure will happen)

      Also, i'm writing a book too (just finished, actually) and i totally agree. I had sort of a plan, but it pretty much went completely out the window as my characters developed and reacted to the situation they were put in.

      And i think there will be a Tam pov, maybe in the 9th book, because he's becoming a more major character as time passes

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Also, you're right that is weird. When i comment on a discussion, it doesn't show up on the page until main Flashback several hours later, even when i reload. Oh well

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Ahhhh okay. Let me think about this

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    • So.

      I agree with most of that. You're right, Keefe doesn't have very high self esteem (*cries for him*...he and Sophie both have that problem). I see what you're saying. Yeah. I think that would seem right to him, and you're right. But I will add I don't think (and you probably agree, I don't know) that he's not going to shut himself off to her. He may not have a very high opinion of himself, but he gives what little he has to Sophie if that makes sense. He's going to make himself available to her no matter what, because he knows she cares about her friends and that he can help her. Though he wouldn't blame her if she hated him, she doesn't hate him (*yet* in his mind) so he's going to do everything he can to be there for her. So if she wants him to distance himself, well he's going to distance himself. If she wants him to be there for her, he's going to be there for her. (Example- He let Ro win the bet because he knew Sophie needed him to help Silveny.) 



      Example quotes-

      She nodded but didn't have the energy to explain- or to relive that horrible red splatter.

      "Hmm," Keefe said, his eyes narrowing as he squinted throught the screen to study her. "Sounds like I need to head over there after Daddy's little hugfest tomorrow."

      "I'm fine- Don't lose your bet. Today was just the first day. It'll get better tomorrow." Or worse, depending on what Tarina had in mind.

      Keefe tore a hand through his hair again. "I can tell there's something you're not telling me right now- but I'm not going to force you to talk about it. If you say you're good, I'll trust you."

      She held his stare through the imparter screen as she told him, "I'm good."

      He nodded.




      So anyway, I think he's just kind of going to coast. He's going to be there for whatever Sophie needs. He's finally getting a hold of his emotions. Even when Sophie thinks he's going to do reckless things, he hasn't been. I think he's finally getting it. But I agree he needs an outlet- And I think he already has one. Ro.

      If you read the Keefe short story, you see the beginnings of the friendship between Ro and Keefe. She gives him advice with Sophie, and he opens up to her about why Sophie is how she is. Ro gets it from the beginning. And throughout flashback we see Ro seem to know a lot. She's hardcore Foster-Keefe, and mutters when Keefe doesn't do what she thinks he should do, but she seems to understand Keefe's boundaries with that. She's with him all the time. She clearly has opinions on things that she wouldn't know unless Keefe told her, or she picked up, but anyway, it seems like she's his outlet and what's helping him open his eyes. It's not a coincidence when  Keefe gets better with being less reckless is when Ro shows up. She helps him see what he needs to do to show Sophie he's there for her in the Short Story. I think Ro is his understanding but annoying friend, like I know I am to some of my friends- whois there to listens and has opinions, and makes comments but resists meddling because she understands that wouldn't help Keefe. 

      You have to remember, Keefe isn't living alone anymore. He has Ro to tell his problems to, and it helps that Ro picks up on things instinctually. I would totally agree with you if this were book four or five, but now that Keefe has Ro, I don't think he'll go looking for another outlet. He already has her, and she's a pretty great while probably frustrating friend.

      Example quotes:

      Ro stalked into his doorway with a bottle of blue nail polish  in one hand and half-painted claws on the other. “No, I’m mad because you’re only doing this to try to fix things with yourlittle girlfriend and it’s not going to work.”

      Keefe jingled the pieces extra loud.

      But after several seconds he had to ask, “Why isn’t it going to work?”

      Ro snorted. “Wow, you really have it bad, don’t you? Nope, no need to deny it. It’s so obvious it’s actually adorable. Especially since she’s totally clueless about it. You know that, right?”

      Keefe rolled his eyes.

      And he was all set to argue—but for some reason “Yeah, I’m an Empath,” slipped out.

      “Ohhhhh, that’s true. Wow, I didn’t even think about that.” Ro giggled as she crossed the room and sat beside him on the bed. “That must drive you crazy.”

      “Pretty much,” Keefe mumbled.

      It wasn’t even the worst part—but he managed to stop himself from bringing up that.

      “You get why, though, right?” Ro asked, slicking blue paint across another claw. “Why your girl doesn’t get how much you liiiiiiiiiiike her?”

      He sighed. “Because she grew up hearing every less-thanawesome thought anyone ever had about her—even from her parents and sister and stuff. So now some part of her always assumes that everyone has those kinds of thoughts about her, even though she can’t hear them anymore.”

      Ro blinked. “Okay, I was not expecting you to get all deep on me.”

      Keefe shrugged. “It’s true.”

      “Not saying it isn’t. Huh, I never thought about how brutal your elf-y abilities could be. Add it to the list of reasons I’m glad I’m not one of you. But that’s not what I was talking about.”

      He had a feeling she was never going to let him live it down if he asked, but . . . “Okay, Miss Smarty Pants, what’s your theory for the Great Foster Oblivion?”

      She held up her hand, blowing on her blue claws. “That’s your problem right there. You make everything a joke. It sends way too many mixed signals—especially for a girl with all that complicated stuff messing with her head.”

      “Maybe. But Foster’s not ready for more than that—trust me.”

      Once again, he stopped himself from cluing Ro into the whole square-that-was-now-a-triangle mess. But with how observant she seemed to be, she’d probably figure it out on her own soon enough.

      “Well, all I’m saying is: If you’re looking to earn her forgiveness, ‘Here, Sophie, have this creepy thing from my mom’ isn’t going to do it. Especially if you parade in there like you just saved the day. She doesn’t need a hero. She needs a friend. So if you want to say you’re sorry, get her a real present.”

      He really hated that she had a point.

      -Keefe Short Story, Nightfall.



      "Thank you," She (Sophie) said as he walked her back to the Healing Center and she tried to make note of the route so she could find the secret cafeteria again. "Tonight woud've been...pretty rough if you hadn't stopped by." 

      "I know," he told her. "For me too."

      "Awwwwww, you guys are SO adorable," Ro jumped in.

      Page 426, Flashback




      (After Sophie asked about his convo with alden) His smile faded. "Yeah, he said Fitz was going to need a friend today."

      "He said a lot more than that," Ro muttered. 

      Relax, Foster," Keefe said, shooting a glare at Ro before he pointed to the crease that had formed between Sophie's eyebrows. "No need to get all crinkly on me."

      -Page 5, Flashback



      See my point about Ro?



      Sorry if this was unnecessarily long. It's kinda fun to write, lol

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    • ~*reads all those quotes and that long comment* RESPECT

      GAH, IT'S SO HARD TO DEFEND YOURSELF WHEN YOUR DEBATE PARTNER IS RIGHT

      So yeah, basicallly i agree with pretty much all of that. So, Keefiana isn't going to happen (thak gosh, i think that wuld killme) but being the obsessed person i am, i'm still trying to find a dramatic, insightful way for Diana or Tiana to happen (preferably Tiana)

      Dang it Keefe, why you gotta go and ruin all my carefully laid out and torturous plans with your undying loyalty??

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • (Aw thank you, fr :) OOOOOH I can so see Tiana!! And I really want it to happen!! I have no theories on that yet, gotta think about it... Do you have any? Even the beginnings of a theory??

      I just think they would balance each other out so perfectly. Biana is such a strong girl, and Tam is just so...idek. I love that ship

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    • I admit, Tiana is probably gonna happen. But I think Diana is cuter in my opinion. But seeing as Tiana has more weight and scenes, it's probably them that are going to be together.

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    • True. I agree, Diana would be cute, I had a hard time deciding this one, but for some reason this book made me see Tiana so much more. I'll have to figure out why on my second read.... 

      Personally, I relate to Biana and Tam most in the series. Maybe that's why- I feel like if I had to be a character, I would be a mix of Biana and Tam and some Grizel and a little bit of Ro lol

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    • Same....

      But idk about theories, i'm just nervous about how Tam joining the Neverseen might affect Tiana. I feel like if Biana has feelings for him, we might get to see more of that whenever he comes up in conversation, or if Sophie manages to check in with him like she did with Keefe (which i really hope happens becasue he definitely deserves to be in the next book at last as much as Keefe was in Lodestar, just with maybe less betraying)

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Also, do you think he's going to start believeing in the Neverseen cause? Because i don't, but there's a lot of people who think that and i just idk

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Also, it was confirmed in the Fitz short story that Biana does have a crush on somebody...not the remains of one. A solid crush. So if she keeps hinting that she's getting over Keefe, that means it's eithr Tam or Dex...and i think it's Tam tbh. I feel like she views Dex as a litte brother, because whenever she's giving him a pep talk or complimenting him, it's in a very friendly and sisterly way, the way I can imagine her saying the same thing to Fitz. Just my personal opinion, though.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Hi, I am new to this forum... I’m Luna. 

      Personally, I ship Sophie with Linh or Biana, but I don’t think Shannon would do that. I also ship Dex with Keefe.

      But from a writing POV, I think that Sokeefe would work the most. They have always been there for each other, and only Sophie can see the scared angry boy. Their relationship would be comforting, if not overprotective.

      I also think Tiana would work. Do not question me.

      And... Dex. Poor cinnamon roll deserves somebody worthy of he.  So naturally, I would put him with another character who I lurve, Linh. 

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    • Backyard Windchimes- Agreed. Hmmmmm.

      So first of all, I can see Sophie doing the check in thing. I could also see Shannon being weird and making Sophie afraid to make contact with Tam bc she wouldn't want him tortured... Not sure why, but I feel like Shannon could do that. Just a feeling so that's not based on facts like my usual thoughts are though.

      Okay so, here's what I think about Tam joining the Neverseen- 

      Well firstly, I don't understand why everyone is freaking out like "Tam joined the Neverseen!" I think it's much better to say "Tam is being held captive by the Neverseen!" Tam is not- yet- a part of the Neverseen. We should be celebrating Tam's bravery! He agreed to be held captive so that Silveny and Grayfell could live. That's extremely selfless. He knows how ruthless these people are, not to mention Gisela knocked him out. That wasn't even like when Keefe joined the Neverseen. Tam is a captive who they are hoping to recruit- NOT a member who believes in the cause.

      With that said, I do understand why people are worried he could be recruited. He's going to be immersed in the Neverseen's way of thinking for a long time. There are two sides to this- First, Keefe was immersed in their way of thinking and stayed loyal. If Keefe can do it, why not Tam? But then, Tam is a totally different person with a lot less loyalty to the Black Swan specifically. And with Keefe, the Neverseen were just using him. They didn't need him. They were playing a game. They didn't even have Gisela there to tell them her son was useful. But with Tam- They need a shade. (Which I think is suspicious, by the way. Is it only because shades make good weapons? Or is a shade so important to their plan that they need one?)

      Personally, I think that Tam is going to waver for sure. He has no love for the council, and he doesn't mind breaking the rules. He's bitter because of how the elves have treated him and Linh as twins. I think that gives him a lot of motivation to understand their cause. And we have no idea what most of the members of the Neverseen's stories are.  For Alvar, it's some vacker legacy. Gisela...something to do with seeing the flaws in the world, but why? And Ruy went to exilium. His motivation and backstory could be similar to Tam's. Same with Umber, she's a shade, like Tam. The history is there. And if their backstories are what caused them to join the Neverseen, and Tam has a similar one, the odds aren't looking good.

      Tam.. is a complex character. He's very good at reading other people, which makes him good at keeping other people from reading him. So to be honest, there's not much to go off of when it comes to his loyalties, only rare glimpses of anger, usually when it comes to his parents and exilium. And we know that he is not entirely loyal to the blackswan, and was even reluctant to join.

      In other words- I think Tam has enormous potential for turning. I just don't know what Shannon will do, because I don't know Tam well enough. But if he turned, it wouldn't surprise me.

      In conclusion, I'm going to compare him again to Keefe. I was never worried about Keefe's loyalties when he went to the Neverseen. I was upset, but I never understood when people thought that he could JOIN join the Neverseen. I knew he was too angry, and didn't believe in their cause OR their method. We had just seen how upset he was that he was connected to them by the awful things his mom had done, and he always wanted to undo what she'd done. So I knew that the last thing he'd do was join for real. But for Tam, I'm worried, because I could see it going either way, while for Keefe there was no doubt in my mind. I can easily see this going either way, and I won't be surprised if Shannon chooses the darker turn.

      (Gtg to bed but I'll talk about the effect Tiana could have tomorrow!!)

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    • okay I was gonna write this last night but my internet shut down.

      the ships I hope for are sokeefe, diana, tarella, lylie for the winh.

      now diana doesn't have very many moments, considering everyone's going fullblown tiana, but I think it has some sense, it would be like prince x peasant but genderbent, plus dex may have shown some affection, but he's likely holding it back because it's biana, and heck she's a vacker.

      tarella has like two moments

      help my sanity

      sokeefe isn't solid in stone but if you need I can provide a bunch of reasons why it's good

      lylie is confirmed in my mind. sQUEAK thEy'Re adORable,

      I want to give a bunch of reasons but I have a headache, so good day.

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    • @BlackSwanSMR

      Yes, i totally agree!! And i definitely think Shannon's going to try and hold off on contacting Tam as much as possible....*sigh*

      IN all honesty, i wouldn't be surprised either...because you can't be surprised if you're dead. And you're right, i was never worried about Keefe, and there was a definitely a reason Shannon revealed Tam's hesitation with joining the Black Swan. But Keefe had Sophie on the other side, and Tam has Linh. But i could definitely see him starting to believe in the cause, especially with what they claim they're trying to accomplish. It's just...Tam has grown to see everybody (even Keefe) as his family. Maybe Linh is still a little above them, but he's afraid of hurting any of them. When he was trying to help Sophie with the shadow thoughts and he ended up hurting her, it said "two silver flecked eyes were staring into hers, filled with such anguish and horror it stole the air from her lungs." The way he reacted to Linh being theatened: "Tam wobbled like he'd been punched in the gut" was like someone physically hit him. It hurts him just as much, if not more when people he loves get hurt, even though he tries to hide it. He knows joining permanently would cause them a lot of pain, and no matter how wrong it felt, i feel like he'd go back to them.

      And we both know Tam is incredibly selfless. On several occasions, he's said something along the lines of "I don't care about me." and proceeds to say something about Linh. If he joined the Neverseen permanently, he probably thinks (or knows, in his mind) the others will hate him. He'd lose the only family he has left. I don't know if he could handle that. If he lost Linh and the others, i think he'd feel like there was nothing left to live for.

      But of course, the points you made were spot on. Tam has no love for the council, and he only joined the Black Swan to make Linh happy. He's never been the trusting type. He's been looked down upon his entire life, for his power and for being a twin. He's bitter, and he's angry, and that seems to be a common trend with the Neverseeen members. But he's also the kind of person that doesn't choose sides. As long as the people who hurt him and his family are on the other side, he's fine with anything--and theyre not. And his parents...well, we know he hates proving his parents right, or making them happy. He joins the Neverseen, and doesn't it kind of prove them right in their opinion about everything they said about twins? I mean, Tam would be the nly one of the group to join, and he's a twin, and a Shade. And he'd also hurt Linh's newly built reputation.

      I guess what i'm trying to say is you're right, it could go both ways. He'd do anything to protect Linh: 1. He'd be trying to build a better world for her, and everyone else, and maybe he can manage the Neverseen to make sure she doesn'g get injured. 2. He knows joining the Neverseen would hurt her, and he can't live with that.

      He doesn't have the same connection with the others as Keefe did, and therefore he thinks it will be harder for them to forgive him: 1. he'll do everything he can to earn back their trust. 2. if they're not going to forgive him anyway, what's the point of going back?

      He's going to have to choose, and honestly, idk what will happen in the end. I just hope he sees reason. (And kudos to you if you made it all the way down here, that probably made no sense at all)

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • @Rain The Fanwing

      Yes, Lylie is in the bag, lol

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Another thing that stood out to me about Tam is that the only way Sophie described what he did was as a sacrifice. She seemed to have at least near complete faith that he wouldn't betray them. In the past, when Sophie's sure of something, it usually turns out to be wrong. Sophie believed Keefe had betrayed them in the beginning, and he didn't. Now Sophie has faith in Tam, and i feel like Shannon just can't help but try and beat our faith in him into the ground and smash it to pieces.

      (Wearing my Tam shirt in support)

      Backyard Windchmes

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    • Backyard Windchimes- I totally agree. You and I keep thinking along the same lines, lol!

      I agree about Linh. I could only see him joining if he thought it was best for Linh. He wouldn't want to hurt her, but if he thought it would help her in the long run, he would do it. His selflessness could become his motivation for evil.

      I also agree that "he's not the kind of person who likes to choose sides", like you said. I could see him trying to use the Neverseen and the Black swan. He is going to do whatever is best for Linh, and whoever is opposite to that is his enemy. I totally agree.

      Really...Tam could go either way.

      And lastly, I hadn't thought about the last thing you said!! Wow, that is a really good point!! Sophie is oblivious so most everything, and tends to place her trust in the wrong places....VERY good point. Thank you! :)

      (Btw, you should make an account so we could chat on a message wall or you could post theories on blogs. I really like this theory thread we have going)

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    • I really do too. But i don't have an email, and my parents are SUPER overprotective about talking to people on the internet. But I'm getting an email soon, so hopefully that means i can get an account.

      So, now that we've agreed on Tam...Tiana?

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • I'm not too great with coming up with theories, so all i have to go on is personalities, which i like to think I'm good at. But with Biana...*sigh* Here we go

      Okay, so i'm going to start with the fact that Biana has a crush, and the assumption that it's Tam, cuz I've kinda said everything i can about that earlier. And I'm also going to talk about how she would feel if he betrayed them.

      So, I think Linh would feel guilty. Guilty because she said they shouldn't rescue him, and that led to him being fed propaganda and turning, guilty because it's her that he's doing all of this for and so on. And Linh and Biana have pretty much never interacted. But you'd have to argue pretty hard, even if you weren't a Tiana shipper, to say that Tam and Biana don't have some sort of chemisty/relationship, platonic or oherwise. For Linh, she lost her brother. For Biana, she lost her older brother (alvar), and who she had come to consider a good friend. They're going to bond over Tam, kind of like Piper and Hazel (if you've read Heroes Of Olympus) when they lost Annabeth.

      Linh and Biana's reactions are going to hurt Tam the most. Linh has been with him through everything, and he'd give anything for her--and Biana is his crush. Tam comes across to me as a sensitive person--say the right thing, and you can get him to do pretty much anything. Sophie's going to realize that Linh and Biana have the best chance at getting through to him--and when they do (which i have pretty much no doubt they will at some point), Tiana's going to be in Biana's hands entirely.

      Tam just betrayed them. There's no way he's going to confess or even show any feelings towards Biana, even when he gets back. He's going to step aside, and I have a feeling that even if Biana confesses first, he's going to urge her to fnid someone better. We already know what he thinks of himself--a twin, a Shade, a wayward and sort of banished--but Biana's going to insist, and then BAM! TIANA!

      But that's all still assuming that Biana isn't as oblivious as Sophie. Okay, i know that duh, Biana's not oblivious, she saw Sophitz a mile away. But everybody saw Sophitz a mile away. In my opinion, Biana's the kind of person that is so caught up in other people's drama, that she doesn't realize her own. She's used to getting crushes from strangers, not friends, and she's going to need a real splash in the face to wake up and realize Tam likes her--and it's going to a blow when she does.

      Now, even if Biana forgives Tam (which i think will happen soonish) and Tam forgives himself enough to be with her (which is definitely going to be way harder for him), there's just one tiny problem left...IT'S ALL IN SOPHIE'S POINT OF VIEW! Which is why, we need a Tam or Biana pov.

      Ships are all about drama with Shannon. Now, here's the thing. Tiana and Diana are kind of at a standstill at the moment. Nothing really pushing them anywhere, like the attack did with Sophitz...UNTIL NOW (dun dun duuuuuuun). Tam was kidnapped by the Neverseen, and we're not allowed to rescue him, oh no!!! That's drama, sure. But what about the classic "Don't Be Evil, I Love You"? Perfect, right? Because, Tam isn't really evil. He's doing this to protect the only person he's cared about for most of his life. Biana knows that, and she already had to go through this with Keefe, but it wasn't for real. This is for real. So she's going to do whatever it takes to bring her friend back, even if it means committing to something she hadn't realized she wanted. And that is why Tam is going to turn--for ships, for his sister, for angst and for action.

      (I just realized how i rant so much and how little of it makes any sense, and i couldliterally summarize in three paragraphs. Oh well.)

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Also, are you the person who started this discussion? Or was that someone else?

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Just look at other literature love-triangles. 

      Harry Potter and Cho Chang. Percy Jackson and Rachel Elizabeth Dare. Katniss Everdeen and Gale.

      All of these were the first choices and none of them lasted. The first relationship never works out because they start in the middle of the series when the main characters are still trying to figure everything out, plot-wise and romantically. The same with Keeper.


      Sophie can still barley let go of her childish crush after 7 books, and now that she got what she thinks she wants, she can begin learning that relationships should contain more than "he has cute eyes." Fitz seriously has so pretty toxic personality flaws imo (jeasously, a huge temper, self-absorbed, manuliplative) which Sophie will hopefully stop ignoring becuase of heart flutters.

      And she was crying because "Fitz was the first person to say she's beautiful and amazing" yet Keefe literally tells her that every scene. She's just been blinded by the crush, but now the veil has lifted.  We've got at least two more books of Keeper, so Sohpie has plenty of time to mature... and realize that Team Keefoster is stronger then ever ;)

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    • ^Fandom User above me

      Yeah, that's a really good point as well.

      Also, I'd like to talk about something I've noticed recently. It's not about ships, really, more about character personalities.

      As everyone knows, characters are meant to seem human--this means that they have good traits and things that make them special, but they also have flaws, and make mistakes. And something stood out to me as i was rereading this discussion--Keefe doesn't have that.

      Take Fitz for example. One of the main reasons Sokeefe shippers have against Sophitz is Fitz's anger issues. This is could be considered a character flaw. Or the fact that Dex tends to resent people like the Vackers, or Biana being "possessive" of her brother and not liking to be used. Tam's bitterness and trust issues, Sophie's anxiety and need to have everything under control, and Linh's fear of her power. Of course, these descriptions aren't the flaws themselves--it's how these characters react because of them. Fitz yelling at Sophie and nearly ruining their friendship, Dex calling out the Vackers and the time Sophie spent with them and nearly ruining their friendship, Biana rejecting Sophie and leaving her out, Tam getting into rivalries and refusing to be friendly to people he doesn't trust, Sophie sitting around and worrying while Dex makes secret stashes of weapons, and Linh scrambling away from Sophie to avoid her enhancing.

      Now Keefe on the other hand...well, in Nightfall, he definitely had a character flaw--his habit of going behind Sophie back and doing things she wouldn't like to keep her safe. But as of Flashback, that's gone. He vowed to change. So...now what? I know a lot of people would say "well, he has really low self esteem. That's a character flaw!"

      But is it? Because, in my opinion, character flaws are things that get on other people's (other characters or readers) nerves. Sophie seems drawn to low self esteem. Now, i will acknowledge the argument that maybe the fact that Keefe feels like Sophie will hate him everytime the Neverseen does something could be considered his flaw, but I'm willing to point out that it's only around Sophie. He's only apologized to the others once, and that was in Nightfall. I know it's because Sophie's always the one who gets hurt, but he doesn't apologize to Linh when it's his mother that captures Tam. I think it's only because of Sophie, and how he feels about her, which i don't consdier a flaw, because it's not expressed around or affect everyone else.

      To me, there are three basic elements to a character (or anybody's) surface personality. How they act when they're happy, sad, and angry--and what causes them to be happy, sad, and angry. The flaws are what make characters angry, and Keefe's mom doesn't make him angry so much as hurt. Keefe is loyal, he's brave, and he's willing to step aside to let Sophie be happy. He's not possessive, and he doesn't come on tooo strong, he doesn't lash out, and he's not resentful. He was bitter about his mom, but he's seemed to gotten over that, and somewhat accepted it.

      I know there's other minor things that could  be considered minor flaws, but i feel like his major one is gone. Just my opinion though

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Although, come to think of it, the flaw I put for Linh isn't a flaw either, because it doesn't make her angry. Have we ever seen Linh get angry?

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • keefe needs to flawse more often, when was the last time you brushed your teeth, keefe, seriously

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    • ^lol Backyard Windchimes

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    • I think personal that Fitz and Sophie will end up together. I see alot of people say it is a head thing but I disagree. Keefe knows she likes him. And he is an empath. Also I feel like sophie views keefe like the brother she never had. Also I think he would have know if she liked him. It has been forshadowed that they like each other though the other is oblivious until flashback. If keefe and sophie were to end up together it would take a lot of time. I would estimate at the least 4 books because otherwise it would feel forced and unrealistic. First sophie and fitz would have to break up, then she would have to start acknowled she likes keefe, then they would both would have to confess to each other. They would most likely be oblivious that they liked each other. It did take seven books for her and fitz to figure out they both like each other. I am not against sophkeefe happening. I just feel like it would ruin the forshadowing effect Shannon Messenger has going on. And her being single could happen but very unlikely becasue there are two guys semi fighting right now for her. Now fitz having angry issues is character growth. If he was all perfect and happy he would seem like a robot. He will get past it. Also if they didn't end up offically woth eachother now it will probably ruin their trust and that will lead to them not being cognagents (sorry if I spelled that wrong) I personal don't think Fitz would just dump sophie just because they weren't matched. I think he just was curious and wanted it to be a way of telling her he liked her. It wasn't like he was on the list. No one matched with her. But it is a possibilty that they could break up over that but I think it would take more then that. Anyway whoever wins either keefe or fitz I will be fine. Though I really do want fitz to end up with sophie!

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    • ^Okay, give me a second.

      So, first off, i do agree with your whole "Fitz's anger is personality growth" thing. A lot of people don't seeem to understand that, and i appreciate that.

      Second, you're right, that Fitz wouldn't dump Sophie because they weren't matched. In fact, i don't think Fitz would dump her at all. I think Sophie is going to be the one to do it. Fitz is going to cause tension because he can't handle being a bad match (he even said so himself) and he's going to make Sophie (who overthinks things severely) feel like he doesn't want her or that she's not good enough for him because of it. He might not mean to make her feel this way, but i think he unintentionally will, and that's why they'll break up.

      Another thing i agree on is the fact that Sokeefe needs time, at least four books. Keefe has liked Sophie since book 1. Keefe definitely knows about her crush on Fitz also, from reading her emotions. But he also implied there was something else in Nightfall, and he smiled as he said it. This could hint at Sophie's hidden feelings for Keefe. And as for the foreshadowing thing, think about it. Keefe chose to disclose this information to Sophie alone. And this has already come into play once, with Dex's crush on Sophie, and (I could be worng, idk) I'm pretty sure that was before Keefe mentioned anything. So, him telling this Mind vs Heart info to Sophie, who he has a crush on, alone might foreshadow at it coming into play again with these two characters.

      And the cognates thing does provide an interesting dilema. The only hing that wouldn't ruin their trust was a mutual letting go. If both Fitz and Sophie found someone else, that would help them both move past it.

      I think I hit everything you mentioned, but let me know if i missed anything. Also, I would provide quotes, but I'm lazy. Sorry

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • ^^I completely agree with that!

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    • Also, most of this comment has absolutely nothigat all to do with this discussion topic, this has just unintentionally become my ranting space.

      So, Tam. Again.

      I've been thinking about how long it's going to take for him to join the Neverseen. In my opinion, it's going to take a while. It might happen in half a book, it might take two, but in the kotlc timeline, it will take a while. Here's why.

      Let's talk about Lady Gisela for a second. She's the most manipulative memeber of the Neverseen. She often knows the exact thing to "motivate" (read, "threaten") people to do what she wants. She's able to read people, and understand what drives them, and then twist it to her advantage. But that's her problem. She only knows threats. She doesn't seem to understand that people do things for other reasons as well. But she's also incredibly adaptable.

      Now let's talk about Tam. In my opinion, he's kind of an open book. Lady Gisela barely knew him, and she already knew exactly how to "motivate" him. He's protective, and loyal, but is also bitter, and doesn't trust easily. But there's something else I noticed.

      In my view of the world, there are two kinds of people. Mirrors, and Balancers. Personally, I'm a Balancer. My personality is all over the place, I'm adaptable, and I tend to stay the opposite of whoever I'm interacting with. A lot of my friends joke about depression/are depressed, that I'm kind of forced to be optomistic and cheerful all the time at school. But when I get home, I'm surrounded around much happier people, and i become more irritable and closed off. I'm awkward around social people, and social around awkward people. I keep a balance, and make sure the scales are equal.

      Tam on the other hand, is a Mirror. If you make an ugly face in a mirror, it'll make an ugly face right back at you. This is kind of what happened with Keefe. Even after Keefe came back, and their rivalry should've ended, they both kept pushing. After Tam gets to know you, and is comfortable acting like himself, and not mistrusting and bitter, he's able to relfect everything you throw at him. He talk easily with Sophie, who is awkward and not the best at reading people. He's awkward around Biana (ignoring the crush part) because she's social and an outrovert, and he doesn't quite know how to deal with that. He's annoyed with Keefe, who keeps on shooting barbs at him, and he shoots right back.

      Now, back to the Neverseen. They know good and well that Tam doesn't want to be there. At first, Lady Gisela is just going to threaten Tam into doing everything she wants. But she's going to quickly realize that she can't keep doing that forever. She's going to put on an act, and pretend to be nice and care about him. Eventually, if it goes on long enough (and I mean long enough), he'll feel guilty about acting hateful towards people who weren't being hateful towards him. Lady Gisela is going to slow their plans up to earn Tam's trust and try and keep him away from all the horrible things theyre doing. This'll give Sophi and them a chance to finally get ahead. Add that to the force-fed propoganda, and you might end up with a confused Tam, torn between what he knows the Neverseen have done, and what they're claiming they're fighting for, and what that means for everyone else, including his sister.

      Also, on a completely, absolutely, one-hundred-percent random note, I think that Tam and Linh were born in the fall (from what I could figure out) and somewhere between September 23 to November 22 because of the star signs. Tam is definitely a scorpius, and Linh seems like a libra, and both of these are in the fall.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • ^Sorry, you guys totally didn't ask for a breakdown of my personality, lol. That was mostly to make sure you knew what i meant. You can skip over that if you want.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Ooh, nice thread idea!  I hate when people just say FITZ BETTER or KEEFE BETTER without really elaborating, because, let's be honest, they both are good characters and have interesting, developed, relationships.

      I might be biased towards Foster-Keefe since that is my main ship, but I do think Fitzphie is pretty cute, just not as cute.

      Tiana:  I think there have been hints Tam likes Biana (most notably in Nightfall if I remember right) but it's not so obvious it's annoying.  I think from a writing perspective, if more development leads up to them, they would work very well together.

      Fitzphie: It seems a little bit more like a childish crush rather than a developed, mature love.  Additionally, it's been pretty clear they both like each other, leaving no element of surprise or interest when they got together.  They do work very well together, but there are some flaws in it.

      Foster-Keefe: In Nightfall, there's tons of evidence for them liking each other, especially when Keefe talking about Sophie's feelings coming from the heart vs head.  Additionally, they tease each other A TON which is a huge sign of them liking each other.  Keefe is a very well developed character, as is their friendship.  This feels more like love rather than a crush.  I think it would have been a nice surprise but may have not worked out great with Fitz and Sophie's relationship as well as Keefe and Fitz's.

      Sophie-Dex: There was definitely evidence for Dex liking Sophie, but I was so glad when Sophie turned them down.  They just don't seem to fit well in a romantic relationship but are AWESOME friends.

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    • I’m a SoKeefe shipper, not going to lie. But here are my reasons for not liking SoPhitz.

      1) Fitz said that he thinks Sophie is his like his “little sister”, which means he never thought about them dating. I’m guessing he started thinking about that when the match packet became a big deal, or when he realized what Keefe was doing.

      2) Keefe is really nice to Sophie, and I don’t mean that in an opinionated way. In Exile, Fitz was a brat to Sophie. He thought it was her fault Alden was... well... and Keefe didn’t really know Sophie that well, but he was still nice to her. I get it, blame the girl who had most likely to do with it for your dads death, but he was still a jerk. But since Sophie still liked Fitz, she took that as a “moment” because she still liked Fitz.

      3) Sophie only likes Fitz for his looks. Well kinda. Mainly. Sorta. In the first book, it was because he was handsome. But Sophie likes Keefe because of his personality and his jokes, not just because of his looks.

      4) Fitz wasn’t always that nice to Sophie. He cared more about other things, instead of focusing on Sophie. (Which isn’t great, but if he liked her then he should have). But with Keefe it’s all about Sophie. Well, Foster. He cares more about Sophie than Fitz.

      5 and Final) GIFTS!!! Fitz gives Sophie so many gifts, it’s almost like he’s guilty for something. And they’re not that great gifts compared to Keefe’s. Keefe gave Sophie paintings that he drew by himself, because he knew what was going on and what she needed.

      Once again, I may be kind of biased, but I feel that these arguments are valid.

      Ana
      
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    • @Feathermist234

      I agree with Tiana. A LOT!!! I also agree that there are flaws with Fitzphie, but there are also flaws with Keefoster. Maybe not for them, but for others. I've mentioned this before, but Keefe seems to only care about Sophie. If he does the smallest thing, or the Neverseen does something, he feels like she'll hate him. He's only focused on her. I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again, because it bothers me, a lot.

      When I mentioned Keefe's lack of character flaws, i said something about the whole "Sophie, feel free to hate me" thing. But think about it. He did the things he did with the Neverseen to protect Sophie, and he still feels horrible about it. Heck, he was fully prepared for Sophie hate when he visisted her in the Healing Center and he wasn't even there. His mother wasn't there either. Yet he's constantly afraid she'll leave him. People point out how uptight Sophie is around Fitz, but what about Keefe around Sophie? Yeah, they have their easy teasing, but Sophie and Fitz have their easy moments as well.

      Now let's talk about the end of the book, with Tam getting kidnapped by Lady Gisela. This time, Keefe was there, it was his mother that took Tam, and he couldn't stop him from going. And who's the only person he cares about? Sophie. Not Linh, who just lost her twin brother, when it was Keefe's mom that took him. He doesn't apologize at all. The only time he's apologized to anyone else about joining the Neverseen in the first place was once in Nightfall. But how may times has he apologized to Sophie? Hundreds.

      He also gave up his best friend for her. She tore apart Keefe and Fitz's friendship. Yeah, you could agrue that the breaking point was Keefe joining the Neverseen, but it wouldn't have broken if jealousy over Sophie hadn't stretched it to its limit.

      I don't know. This part is biased, but to me, Keefe seems obsessed with Sophie. Loving each other too much is just as bad as not loving each other enough. I would be absolutely fine with Keefoster if it happens later, preferably not in the kotlc timeline,a dn after they've both had a break. Maybe in an epilogue, idk

      And i realize this comment sounded like I was blaming Kefe and Sophie really harshly, and I'm not trying to (mostly). I'm just trying to point out how Sokeefe affects others and them as well. Sorry if it sounded offensive.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • ^^^(I feel bad now, because I feel like I'm only disregarding all of your points. So sorry if it comes across that way, i just really love debating like this, and i appreciate you guys shouting all your points in this discussion!)

      1. He says Sophie's like a little sister in the earlier books, before he fully realized he liked her. It's said he only figured out he liked her after they tried to break into Exile, in Neverseen. There was three books before that, and after that, he stopped saying that.

      2. I can't really argue that Fitz was a jerk to Sophie in Exile, because he was. But about her forgiving him super easily? She also let Keefe off the hook way to easily. Heck, he destroyed Foxfire, left her stranded in an abandoned Neverseen base with no leaping crystal as he rescued Alvar, and comprimised Alluveterre, forcing them to relocate Tam and Linh for the 3rd time and lose a base. But she pretty much forgave him as soon as he came back. That was (in my opinion) a lot worse than yelling at you and blaming you for something, and apologizzing profusely at the end of the book.

      3. ....true. Very true. But she does think he's sweet, too. But his teal eyes do seem to be a reoccuring feature...

      4. Again, Fitz didn't start liking her till the fourth book (well, realize it anyway). And I kind of adressed the fact that Keefe only thought of Sophie in my comment above (if you want to read that. Honestly, you can probably skim it, lol)

      5. To be fair, Fitz gave her ripplefluffs that he made himself. And yeah, it's nice that Keefe had the skill to give her what she needed at the time. But maybe Fitz is guilty for not realizing how amazing she was sooner, and he's trying to make up for lost time, and he knows she loves desserts. And yeah, maybe Keefe knows what she needs more than Fitz, but that's kind of Sophie's fault. She only seems to tell Keefe anything to deal with her emotions.

      Anyway, just my thoughts. I'm neutral, of course, but honestly, i don't really like either ship, so if my points seem kind of negative, that's probably why, lol. Sorry

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • I personally ship Sophitz (most of the time), so I apologize if this sounds biased in any way. But, despite me rooting for Fitz, I think that because of the last part of Flashback, Sophie probably won't end up with anyone (at least at the end of the series). I think this is Shannon Messenger's segway into basically saying "Sophie can't be with anyone." Other reasons for this is that 1. she wants you to read more of her her books! Logically, it doesn't make sense to lose half your fan base because you chose one guy over another. 

      BUT, by sorta putting Fitz and Sophie together, it's kinda like the point of no return. If Sophie breaks it off with Fitz, she risks losing the Vacker family as a support system, and as an in (they're pretty influential). This will probably push her together with Keefe, who obviously has feelings for her. Which in turn, will also ruin Fitz and Keefe's friendship. So then Sophie looks like the bad guy! 

      I like how Fitz is emotional, but also doesn't depend on Sophie too much. In Exile, I may not think Fitz handled that situation well, but it's more realistic. Fitz can't be perfect, he has to have some flaws for the character to be relatable. I get it; that was not cool. But I also think it was a necessary part in the plot. If he hadn't reacted, that just would've seemed fishy. 

      Keefe is pretty awesome too; I'll gladly admit that. But I also think their relationship would be a lot of worrying for each other. It's cute now, but how much is too much?

      But despite all this talking about ships, I want to see Sophie connect with her friends more, instead of focusing on all her romantic relationships. If they all had more bonding time, I think they also would be more cohesive as a team. 

      -A1

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    • WHOA. I've been absent, and this thread blows up.... Wow. I really want to reply to everything, but Backyard Windchimes, you seem to be doing a great job of replying so I don't need to lol!!! (Btw, I understand, my parents are really careful about the internet too. It's only recently that I'm allowed to do anyhting on here....and I can have no social media or anything.)

      Also, AMAZING theory about mirrors and balancers. I think...I think I'm a balancer. I'm not exactly sure. It depends on whether I'm comfortable or not. Around people I'm intimidated by, I'm probably a mirror, but anyone younger than me or close friends or someone I want to impres, I'm a balancer. I THINK. And I totally see your point about Tam. I'm going to read that again and really think about it soon.

      Wow....I'm going to reply more later, but one thing that I've been thinking about is as far as Keefoster, is that people keep saying they have to confess they like each other. I disagree. I think their relationship is deeper than that. If he is there as a loyal friend throughout everything, and something happens to her with Fitz and he's there for her as a support and a shoulder to cry on, respecting her and staying her friend, and then she slowly starts to notice feelings for him...there are ways for things to happen subtly. Just mutual understanding. Not even crushing, just becoming a couple. If she just comes to understand that he's always going to be there for her and is endeared by his qualtities, and he already knows he likes her, and they just start to become a couple without even saying "I like you" or officially getting together, then their ship can sail. In a way, Shannon won't even "pick" Keefoster. If it just happens naturally without any acknowledgement of "I like him", just butterflies, and mutual support and undying friendship, then they don't have to go through the motions! They don't have to go through the weirdness of "oh we're dating now" and drama and all that. I can just see....in my mind, I'm a visual and conceptual person with weird images associated with everything. And I picture two trees, just growing toward each other and supporting each other and becoming together. They don't have to be separate and then all of a sudden be together. They can just grow to be together. 

      See, here's the thing. It's heart vs head emotions. WIth Fitz, Sophie is always THINKING. It's always "Does he like me? Do I look okay? He said I look good! He brought me presents! Does he like me? He's going to kiss me!" etc. She's always thinking and expressing her thoughts. Meanwhile with Keefe, she just blushes or gets butterflies and she doesn't know why. This is why I can't see her just snapping and waking up and saying "OH, you know what? I like Keefe now!" Their relationship, like their friendship and their trust, would just grow to be there. 

      For instance, when she describes Keefe she doesn't think about how she's thinking of him. Here are some Keefoster quotes from the Keefoster page, that prove my point-


      • "And Keefe was right where she'd left him - right where he'd said he'd be - his arms stretched out and ready to catch her, like he'd known she'd be dizzy and heaving by the time she finally fled."

      — Shannon Messenger, Keeper of the Lost Cities Flashback


      • "Sophie wasn't sure why her voice sounded so thick when she said, 'It's good to have backup.' 'It is.' His smile softened into something that made Sophie's cheeks warm. And her heart seemed to trip over itself as he leaned close and carefully pinned Krakie to the back of her hand, right in the center."

      — Shannon Messenger, Keeper of the Lost Cities Flashback

      • "'No, Foster. You look… perfect.' She blushed at the slightest catch in his voice – and then wished she hadn't when he flashed his trademark smirk."

      — Shannon Messenger, Keeper of the Lost Cities Flashback

      • "From that point on, he only had one goal: to be whatever Sophie needed. Not the hero. Not the one taking charge of everything. Just a guy ready to listen and help and be there for her. A friend. Until she was ready for more."

      — Shannon Messenger, Keeper of the Lost Cities Nightfall (Extended Edition)

      "'Foster, Foster, Foster--always so adorably oblivious. I'm the gift. I'm all yours today--though I might be willing to extend my servitude if you call me the Gift Master.' Sophie rolled her eyes as she smiled. 'You're ridiculous, you know that?' 'And you love it.' His grin shifted into something softer, something that made her stomach tighten."

      — Shannon Messenger, Keeper of the Lost Cities Nightfall

      • "Grady, meanwhile, was studying Keefe as if he'd never seen him before in his life. 'I'm glad you're back,' Sophie told him, keeping her voice low--just for the two of them. Keefe's smile turned unbearably sweet, 'Me too, Foster. Me too.'"

      — Shannon Messenger, Keeper of the Lost Cities Nightfall

      • "'And here's another thing you can count on. You'll never lose me. No matter how all this stuff [crushes] goes down,' there was a softness to his voice. Maybe even a sweetness. And for a second, Sophie's breath seemed to catch."


      I tried going to the Fitzphie pages and finding quotes, but they suprisingly don't have that many recent quotes.

      See, whenever Fitz and Sophie have a moment Sophie is hyper-aware. She thinks about it. She's always thinking and feeling and "Oh my goodness he said that!" And she knows about her crush, of course, and so she's aware that she feels that way because it's Fitz. MEANWHILE with Keefe, she doesn't know why. She hardly ever thinks about why she gets butterflies or blushes. She just...does. ("Sophie wasn't sure' why..." "'''Maybe evensweetness...")

      That's why I think they would be so natural. And it wouldn't be thinking, or wanting, or wishing, like Fitz. It'd be just gradual knowing and understanding and accepting. And that's the beauty of it.

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    • ^Omg, i just read you comment, and the song Forever And Always came on...O.O

      And btw, welcome back! Hope this wasn't a big mess of...messes (bc i can write)

      Anyway, @A1: Yes!!! just...yes. I feel like any as of right now, with only nine books, Keefoster would feel rushed BECAUSE 1. Sophie doesn't even know she likes Keefe. Keefe does, but she doesn't and he's already stepped aside for Sophitz. It's going to take a whole book i think for them to figure out their drama (book 8) and if she just immediately got into a couple stage, like what BlackSwanSMR talked about (which was amazing btw, i never thought about that), it would feel rushed and forced. Sophie might lean on Keefe a little more, but i don't think they're "trees" will entertwine just yet. So all in all, yes, i agree that Sophie might not (or at least in my opinion, shouldn't) end up with anybody, at least right now, or in the kotlc timeline. Like I've said before, I would be totally great with en epilogue where a Sophie ship is confirmed, but right now, what with the Neverseen and now Tam, i feel like it wouldn't be right to only focus on Sophie and her drama. It would be amazing if she spent more time with her friends, who were sorely neglected in Flashback.

      @BlackSwanSMR

      Wow. I just can't even right now. I'm going to have to read your comment again to just process it. *reads it again* Okay, here we go.

      ....Yeah never mind, I have no idea how to contribute to that. But Imma give it a shot, lol

      Okay, so I agree completely, I can't see Sokeefe going through the "We're dating now, what do we do" drama. They've always just been easy with each other. I'm a scene person, and when i try and imagine writing a confession scene between Sophie and Keefe, my mind gets through the "I like you"s, Keefe is holding Sophie by the elbows, looking at her, and it just freezes. I can't get past it. Then there's just Sophie voice over the picture, saying "What do we do now?" And the truth is, I don't know. When someone says drama my first thought is a magenta color (Idk why) but then it comes to Sophitz. They're the ship that's constantly circling around Sophie's head. If I imagine a Sophitz confession scene (ignoring the actual one) They say "I like you" and then they move on. They kiss too though (because why not?), which is fun, i guess.

      So basically what I'm saying is yes, I agree. I can totally se that happening in the very last book of the series, or in an epilogue...though preferably when they've had a break from each other (or at least Keefe).

      To me, Keefoster seems like what love is. Just the complete ability to trust them with anything, to lean on them and know they'll support, but most of all, comfort. Just being comfortable around them.

      So now that I've gotten that off my chest...Lylie?

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Backyard Windchimes, to your argument in response to @FeatherMist234-

      (I'm just going to say, i respect your arguments. A LOT. Thank you for being able to talk about this from an un-emotional point of view- It's SO refreshing. These are the type of conversations I want to have. It's great- seriously, thank you!!)

      So first, I have to say, I do agree that Keefe might be a bit obsessed with Sophie. That I can agree with. But I don't agree with everything you said, and I think I have valid proofs to counter your points, so i am going to.

      So first you said-

      "When I mentioned Keefe's lack of character flaws, i said something about the whole "Sophie, feel free to hate me" thing. But think about it. He did the things he did with the Neverseen to protect Sophie, and he still feels horrible about it. Heck, he was fully prepared for Sophie hate when he visisted her in the Healing Center and he wasn't even there. His mother wasn't there either. Yet he's constantly afraid she'll leave him. People point out how uptight Sophie is around Fitz, but what about Keefe around Sophie? Yeah, they have their easy teasing, but Sophie and Fitz have their easy moments as well."

      So in response to that part, I would disagree. Yes, Keefe has been a little more uptight around her recently. But to be honest, he has good reason. First of all, I only see it right AFTER the whole Fitz-Sophie thing. He's a little awkward then, but wouldn't anyone be? And then by the end, and the fight, we see Keefe there for Sophie as always. I can provide quotes if needed.

      But I think you're talking about the fact that he's always worried Sophie is going to hate him. But lets think about it....He does have good reason to assume that. Because pretty much most of the characters he's close to or who's judgement effects him have "hated" him, except Sophie.

      Fitz was his best friend. And then Fitz went through a time in Lodestar when he was ANGRY at Keefe and wanted nothing to do with him- So angry he wouldn't even talk about him. And their friendship still hasn't been mended from that. Grady and Tiergan were angry. His father was angry. Tam was angry and wanted nothing to do with him. And Keefe grew up in a family where if he failed, he was hated. And a disappointment. And his dad wanted nothing to do with him. And so I don't blame Keefe for thinking that eventually everyone who is there for him is going to be disappointed in and abandon him, because that's what's happened to him every time. He's seen people he's close to before "hate" him. So of course he's going to think it's only a matter of time before that happens again, and he doesn't want to be hurt when she pushes him away, so he prepares himself for it. He thinks it's inevitable.

      I think when Keefe says "It's okay if you hate me", what he really means is "I understand if you reject me."

      And then lets think about Keefe and Sophie's relationship. Keefe is only uptight around her when he's afraid she's going to hate him. But when she's the one in trouble, he drops all those feelings and is there to be normal Keefe. Think about Krakie. (Not to mention, unlike Fitz, who whenever he's going through anything, is consumed in himself when Sophie needs him. But that's another discussion.)

      "Now let's talk about the end of the book, with Tam getting kidnapped by Lady Gisela. This time, Keefe was there, it was his mother that took Tam, and he couldn't stop him from going. And who's the only person he cares about? Sophie. Not Linh, who just lost her twin brother, when it was Keefe's mom that took him. He doesn't apologize at all. The only time he's apologized to anyone else about joining the Neverseen in the first place was once in Nightfall. But how may times has he apologized to Sophie? Hundreds."



      Well first of all. It sounds really awful when you say "the first time was Nightfall". But then you think about that he really only got back from the Neverseen in Nightfall. That was the first time he COULD apologize.

      Second, he definitely hasn't apologized to Sophie hundreds of times. (But I think you know that LOL!)

      Third, I really don't even think he's apologized to her all that much. He apologized once, hugely, in Nightfall. And maybe a few other times. But really, it's him saying "It's okay if you hate me". 

      Fourth, and most importantly.... This IS Sophie's point of view. When someone apologizes to someone, they don't really do it in front of people. Keefe wouldn't just go up to Tam and go "I'm sorry, dude" and then move on to Biana and just go in a circle. And really, they are always in a group!!! It's even mentioned that the Vackers don't see the Songs much, etc. And when they're not in a group, Sophie isn't with them. SO OF COURSE all the apologies we are going to see are going to be to the group, or to Sophie. Not to mention....The entire group is closer to Sophie than they are to each other. Keefe included. Keefe isn't close to Tam. Or Linh. Or Biana really, and she wasn't as directly hurt as Fitz and Sophie. Fitz is at a stage where he's still bitter toward Keefe. Dex is kind of a loner....(But honestly, I feel like Keefe would apologize to him if they had an opportunity to.) So who's Keefe primarily going to lean on and apologize to? SOPHIE! Not to mention she's the main character! 

      As for Linh, I need to look back into Flashback. But if I remember correctly, Linh isn't at the scene. I don't think Keefe is even there when the news about Tam is broken to her. So how could he apologize? Also, I don't even think Keefe and Linh have really interacted all that much. They're not close. Keefe wasn't at Exilium. I think the only real time was saving Atlantis. So that...would be hard. Especially if you can only communicate by PHONE CALL/FACETIME- I wouldn't want to call someone I hardly know! The awkwardness! Not to mention, if he does, we aren't going to see it, unless he apologizes in the group. But if he apologizes any other time, we won't see it. If he apologizes while they are in a group, maybe not even then we'll see it. And I think Keefe is getting over taking the balme for his mom. Now he's blaming himslef for his mistakes in Lodestar, not so much his mom. So honestly he doen't even need to apologize to Linh- He didn't take her brother!



      "He also gave up his best friend for her. She tore apart Keefe and Fitz's friendship. Yeah, you could agrue that the breaking point was Keefe joining the Neverseen, but it wouldn't have broken if jealousy over Sophie hadn't stretched it to its limit."

      OK. If the point is that jealousy over Sophie stretched it to it's limit (which I completely agree with), then how is that Keefe's fault? He literally wasn't even doing anything except being there for Sophie. That's FITZ ​​​. Fitz lets himself be bitter over that, when Keefe is like "You guys are perfect for each other". I think if Keefe could, he'd mend the friendship. He asks Sophie how Fitz is in Flashback instead of going to Fitz, because he knows Fitz doesn't want to talk to him. But KEEFE still cares to ask. 

      To conclude, Keefe may be obsessed with Sophie. Maybe that's true. But I don't blame him. Sophie is ALL HE HAS- besides Ro- and to be honest, he's doing pretty good right now, telling Fitz and Sophie they're perfect and supporting her and taking a step back. Because really, he is taking a step back.



      I'm sorry, I realize this sounds kind of like I'm attacking you- But I think you understand that it's not you, just your argument. I would love a counter :)

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    • Backyard windchimes, In response to your latest comment, YES!!! Agreed. That's EXACTLY what's in my head too. Honestly completely. Thank you for getting this. I have to go right now but I wanted you to know I read your comment, and am not disregarding it, I'll reply more later! Bye!

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    • Also- I'm hoping for a tenth book. And I don't really want Keefoster TO HAPPEN happen, I want kind of foreshadowing... Like at the end of the last book, a kiss. As foreshadowing. And It'd be nice if she was totally single for a book. But I don't want a "couple". I want it to be natural.

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    • Wow, what a discussion!!

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    • everyone keeps saying their opinion and then someone from the opposite side yells another opinion and it just keeps going around, and generally the point becomes moot

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    • @BlackSwanSMR

      ....*big sigh*

      Okay. Yeah. Yeah....i agree that that entire argument was pretty biased. Sorry about that. My emotions kinda got in the way there. 

      You're totally right about Keefe and how pretty much everyone was angry at him or hated him or was disapponted in him at some point (yikes). And that's probably where that came from. But...UGH, how do i say this without sounding like I'm hating on Keefe???

      I can't. I tried and I can't. I think I'm going to have to accept that this argument is almost as biased as i can get. But I was interested when you mentioned Tam while you were listing people who were important to him that were angry with him. I'd like to see their relationship develop more.

      I don't know. This next paragraph is going to be completely biased, just warning you, but every time i imagine Sokeefe, one of them's in pain and leaning on the other. Always. I don't think we've been able to see enough moments where they aren't to understand what they would be like if there wasn't that constant pressure. I think they need more time to figure out where they are, and where they can go.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Rain The FanWing - Do you mean on this debate or just in general? 

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    • Backyard Windchimes- I can agree with that. That's true, we really don't see many moments like that, especially recently. They CERTAINLY need more time. If Fitzphie ends and Keefoster happens right away, I will be angry.

      I just want everyone to go play base quest again like "old times" LOL

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    • What do you guys think of Gisela and the power struggles within the Neverseen? Also, Fintan and his motives?

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    • ~*announcers voice* And next, we have a very short commercial break, featuring LYLIE!!!!

      Guys. Is this not one of the cutest ships ever? I think it is. And there's definitely been moments. But cuteness level is not the point!

      Okay, so I know I've been talking about rebounds a lot, but I'm going to do it again. Let's assume for a bit that Fitz and Sophie breaks up. Sophie's got Keefe to lean on, but Fitz doesn't really have anybody? I feel like he'lll still be a bit wary around his parents after the whole alvar thing. He doesn't seem like he has the kind of relationship to go to Biana, so that leaves....Linh?

      Hear me out guys! We know Fitz has never had the best leash on his emotions. I made this argument with Keefe, but I'll make it again, because i thnk it fits Fitz (lol) better.

      We know Fitz shows admiration towards Linh at her power. Fitz was just dumped by the girl he loved, and here's this sweet, lovely girl with an amazing talent who's always been nice to him. Well, it's not Sophie, but it's something, right?

      And maybe it'll make Sophie jealous. Maybe he can get her back, because he really does love her, no matter what she thinks. If only she'd give him another chance....

      But until then, he needs something. Anything. Seeing her become closer with Keefe, his ex-best friend, hurts too much. He thought they had something special. They were cognates! That was so rare, she couldn't just ignore that and forget about him! He didn't deserve that, after all that he's done for her.

      And Linh's nice. She'll understand if he has to go back to Sophie. He just needs to be loved like Sophie loved him, to take the hurt away.

      I realize this makes Fitz sound like a huge jerk, and it sounds more like a romance novel and less like kotlc, and i'm sorry about that. Maybe i don't now Fitz as well as i think i do, but I can see this happening.

      And now, Wylie cares about Linh. She's the one that tok care of him while he was hurt, and they grew close. Plus, he's started acting protective towards her in Flashback. And with Tam gone, he's going to step up as her protector. Linh might not realize how he feels because she's so used to having a boy watch over her, but it won't be long.

      that's just what i think.

      Also, in response to your counter to my Keefe thing BlackSwanSMR, i think it's a little frustrating that this is only in Sophie's pov. It only alows us to see one side of each character, or as much as theyre able to show around Sophie. And You're right, that everyone's closer to her than anyone else, and it bugs me. Just my opinion, though

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • BlackSwanSMR, ooh, i just saw your comment. Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

      Power struggles are always fun, don't you think? Provides a real challenge...

      Okay, so my problem with these is that I can't write villains. All of mine are one sided and flat. But I can try.

      So, Lady Gisela and Vespera. Their relationship and alliance are tense, to say the least. But it's progressing, and I think we can see that in Tam (wow, i talk a lot about him, sorry). Lady Gisela was always focused on her son, and how she thought he could be useful. Vespera kept telling Lady Gisela that she was blinded by her relation to him, and that he would never be useful. She also expressed interest in Tam--both of them did. The fact that Lady Gisela gave up on Keeefe and went for Tam instead, even planning for him to be useful before Umber died by manipulating him into learning Shadowflux, shows that they are beginning to work together a little more Although, i will say this--as much as Lady Gisela thinks she is in control, she isn't. She's merelly a part of Vespera's plans--an unfortunate and sometimes useful one, but a part none-the-less. Vespera is much more powerful, and i think when it comes down to it, it might be a choice for Lady Gisela between her cause, and continuing to work with Vespera.

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    • Backyard Windchimes- I think Lylie is super cute! I used to like Finh, but I wasn't really thinking about it. I just wanted Fitz out of the way, lol. But Wylie and Linh are such a good match. Fitz and Linh just....don't click as well. But that could just be my bias against Fitz.

      I doubt Shannon will take that route, for sake of time and it just being background drama, but I totally think your argument could happen. Maybe even just subtly. I could see it.

      And true, true about Wylie stepping in as protector! True....I hadn't though of that

      Also, I agree. It does bug me. They're not really a team. They are, but they're a team that never would've happened without sophie to pull them together. Like a spider web, where sophie's in the middle, but not many threads connecting the strands.

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    • Fintan is plain to me--revenge.

      Look at the situation he's in. Nothinghas changed for him for the better, Whatever cause he believed in hasn't succeeded, Pyrokinetics are still banned, and he's still a villain. He only wants revenge, and once he gets it, he's going to become a spinning top again--you don't know which way he'll fall. He'll have to choose. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"? Yeah, i think that's what's going through his head right now. He's allying with Sophie and them because he hats Vespera and Lady Gisela more.

      But I think he truly wants to help Marella. He sympathizes her, and on some level, he want to help her, because he knows what it's like to have to hide and be ahsmaed of your ability. I think that part, at leats, he's genuine about.

      Also, Fintan has been a longtime villain, and Sophie and her firneds are now more behind than ever. They lost their friend, who replaced the only Neverseen member they lost. Fintan could be the turning point, and i think it'll be up to Marella to convince him to help. She's slowly becoming a more major character, and it would be a waste to only try and use fintan for training.

      Backyard Windchimes ^

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    • this thread is getting really confusing because we're both on here at the same time, lol. I gotta go for a bit cuz i have homework, but I WILL BE BACK! *Supermans throuhg the roof*

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Fandom User (I think it's still Backyard Windchimes? Yes? No?),

      I agree with most every word of that!! ESPECIALLY about Tam. You're so right- That is such an indicator... And yes. 

      Honestly, I liked it when Gisela was in charge. She's VERY smart (though blind sometimes, and as much as she thinks she's not, emotionally attached). She's a good villain, and I liked how she would keep them on their toes. But right now, honestly? None of the villains are really that scary. It doesn't seem like they have a plan, and Vespera just seems petty. Now, if Vespera can turn Gisela more ruthless.... THAT would be interesting.

      I miss Fintan though, as a villain

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    • I agree LOL! Bye!!!! 

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    • Lol, yea, that was still me. I think this entire thing has just deteriorated (is that how you spell that?) into you and me debating stuff and occasionally countering other rnadom people's arguments lol.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Also, i feel like even if you didn't have an account now, i could probably tell who you were just based on the way you write.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • BlackSwanSRM wrote:
      Anyone have any theories WITH PROOFS to back them up for how Fitzphie would end, or why it would stay strong? Not "they're perfect" mushiness or "bc I want Shannon to". Think about it like Shannon does as the author, and based on what we know about their character traits. 
      My theory is that it will be caused by a series of two or three events. A) the matchmaking: will Sophie tell him, or will she try to hide the fact that she is unmatchable? Fitz's reaction either both scenarios will be critical. If she tells him, he WILL be affected. He may demand that the Black Swan tell them her parents, and when they refuse, both of them will be angry and scared. If Sophie doesn't tell Fitz, then she clearly doesn't have enough confidence in their relation to believing Fitz will love her as a bad match. Her refusal to tell Fitz the trust will cause tension, but may not break them up. It will only be one crack in the glass of their relationship.   B) Something will have to happen with Keefe. My theory is that Keefe will get critically injured in book 8, and as a result, he'll either lose his memories as Alvar did, have a shattered mind, or get injured to the point where he needs to be sedated 24/7. Not unlike Sophie and Fitz's injuries in Flashback. The end result will be Sophie having to look into Keefe's memories. Maybe one of the only surviving memories Keefe has of her, and suddenly Sophie will see every 'gold' memory Keefe was trying to hide, finally cueing Sophie in on Keefe's feelings for her. Keefe will wake up, and admit that Sophie wasn't supposed to see any of those memories. He'll ask if they can act like it never happened, but Sophie will walk away know in great detail just how deeply Keefe cares about her. And then she'll start to be torn between her head and heart. C) The last push to shatter Sophie and Fitz's relationship will be a disagreement. Now, this can be about anything. The matchmaking, the Neverseen, Keefe, etc. But this will be their first real disagreement, and it will end with both of them frustrated at each other and regrating all the drama their relationship has caused. Someone will say "I'm not ready for this," or "I can't be with you until I know the trust about..." or "I need to think this over." I do not think Sophitz will split until the end, of book 8. Book 9 will deal with them trying to realize that they work better as friends, and once the Neverseen are defeated, Sophie and Keefe will have a well-deserved chat about their feeling about each other. Maybe under Calla's tree? Well, that's just I think. Honestly, if I were Sharron, I would have made Fitz and Sophie get together in Flashback too. It needed to happen. Only once we see how the ship fails can we focus on Sophie and Keefe's relationship. Plus, Sharron loves to mess with her characters. She'll give them the happy ending they deserve, I have no doubt about that.
       
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    • So true lol *insert laughing emojis here*

      It has, but I like your theories- I haven't found any one else who can support their points so well, and I like how we agree, and then disagree, but agree LOL 

      Yeah same, except it was kind of a dead giveway for me because you said you talk about Tam a lot (man, I wish there were emoji's on here)

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    • Emmabear13- 

      GREAT theory. Your theory is very similar to mine, except when it comes to the part about Keefe getting injured... I hadn't thought of that. That's an interesting point, one of those things that doesn't have signs but could happen. I tend to look at what could happen based on facts- I like how you're thinking out of the box. 

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    • Backyard Windchimes- I JUST saw your comment about Fintan. Nice. I think I agree with that- Especially the first two paragraphs. "the enemy of my enemy etc" is a very good point. Honestly, I never really understood Fintan's motivation, except as revenge. And you're right about Marella- I think he is really trying to help her.

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    • ^^^LOL, that's like me dead giveaway (that, and my use of parentheses)(That's probably not how you spell that)

      But Emmabear13, amazing argument. That was super detailed and it gave me feels, lol. I agree with basically everything.

      So......what to talk about now? Why do the Neverseen need a Shade, or even two, because they didn't plan on Umber's death, and yet they still planned on Tam learning about Shadowfulx. And somehow, they knew he had a connecion with it? Because that was a pretty big assumption to base your plans on, and that doesn't sound like the Neverseen...

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • ^You know, i feel like this is a problem. I can probably type Tam with my eyes closed....

      yeah, i can. I tried. Tam Song...

      OMG I DID IT!!!!!

      .....wow, i'm bored. I'm gonna write a react

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Also, WHY THENHECKING HECK IS YAM WEARING HUMAN JEANS ON THE COVER OF FLASHBACK???????

      Backyard Windchimes

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      • Tam

      Typing on a tablet it hard

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • lol

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    • Also...I know I already started a discussion about this a while back, but now that Flashback is out....who exactly is the beloved friend?

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • 2606:A000:1128:4169:B036:BE33:AB5B:E661 wrote:
      @Feathermist234

      I agree with Tiana. A LOT!!! I also agree that there are flaws with Fitzphie, but there are also flaws with Keefoster. Maybe not for them, but for others. I've mentioned this before, but Keefe seems to only care about Sophie. If he does the smallest thing, or the Neverseen does something, he feels like she'll hate him. He's only focused on her. I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again, because it bothers me, a lot.

      When I mentioned Keefe's lack of character flaws, i said something about the whole "Sophie, feel free to hate me" thing. But think about it. He did the things he did with the Neverseen to protect Sophie, and he still feels horrible about it. Heck, he was fully prepared for Sophie hate when he visisted her in the Healing Center and he wasn't even there. His mother wasn't there either. Yet he's constantly afraid she'll leave him. People point out how uptight Sophie is around Fitz, but what about Keefe around Sophie? Yeah, they have their easy teasing, but Sophie and Fitz have their easy moments as well.

      Now let's talk about the end of the book, with Tam getting kidnapped by Lady Gisela. This time, Keefe was there, it was his mother that took Tam, and he couldn't stop him from going. And who's the only person he cares about? Sophie. Not Linh, who just lost her twin brother, when it was Keefe's mom that took him. He doesn't apologize at all. The only time he's apologized to anyone else about joining the Neverseen in the first place was once in Nightfall. But how may times has he apologized to Sophie? Hundreds.

      He also gave up his best friend for her. She tore apart Keefe and Fitz's friendship. Yeah, you could agrue that the breaking point was Keefe joining the Neverseen, but it wouldn't have broken if jealousy over Sophie hadn't stretched it to its limit.

      I don't know. This part is biased, but to me, Keefe seems obsessed with Sophie. Loving each other too much is just as bad as not loving each other enough. I would be absolutely fine with Keefoster if it happens later, preferably not in the kotlc timeline,a dn after they've both had a break. Maybe in an epilogue, idk

      And i realize this comment sounded like I was blaming Kefe and Sophie really harshly, and I'm not trying to (mostly). I'm just trying to point out how Sokeefe affects others and them as well. Sorry if it sounded offensive.

      Backyard Windchimes

      I don't exactly agree with the obsessed thing or the Keefe not having flaws, but maybe the reason why he didn't say sorry was because he doesn't like Tam much... (I think it would have been good if he did have time and apologized and everything)

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    • ^Well, Keefe has flaws, just not anger ones. I realize that now. And that argument wasn't the best, but I stand by my point about Keefe being obsessed with Sophie. He's starting to back off, yeah, but it's painful for him. If Sophie told him that she didn't love him that way, and he believed her, it would break him. He would never get over her, not totally, and that's not fair to himself and anyone else he gets together with, if he ever gets together with anyone else at all. I don't know what he would do if Sophitz stayed togther. Don't get me wrong, Keefe would be happy for Sophie, but not for himself.

      I'm not totally sure what the point of this comment was, but i would love to hear why you disagree

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Hey guys new to this chat.

      LOVING your points and arguments so far. And just to get this out of the way, I am biased for Sophitz.

      HOWEVER. I really think/hope that in the end, Sophie doesn't end up with anyone. I agree, Sophitz happened SUSPICIOUSLY fast, and with the amount of story left Shannon says she's planned, it's highly unlikely it'll pull through to the very end. Unless, however, Shannon REALLY spends some time in future books, developing and building their new, more romantic relationship. But, um HELLO, Sophie has to focus on taking down the Neverseen and I think it would be a very awkward juggling act fitting in the two very emotional and deep storylines. 

      so, taking this from a writer's point of view:

      A writer wants to surprise his/her readers. Writers want to avoid cliches and stereotypes and provide something new and fresh. Even though it's awesome when us readers theorize correctly about books, we don't want to be able to predict EVERYTHING, because otherwise, it's boring. 

      That said, I feel like both Sokeefe and Sophitz (and for now, I'm not factoring in any other Sophie ships because by now, it's too late to introduce any other possible "suitors", for lack of better word) are too predictable. And they have been since the beginning.

      Sophitz has been obvious, because Sophie is always swooning over him, and Fitz has been extra nice and sweet to her in the last few books. Frankly, the confession in Flashback was just waiting to happen.

      Sokeefe though, is just as trite. It's the same thing everytime for "broken boys" in stories. The "broken boy" is scarred, hurt, has a tragic backstory, hides it with whatever emotion the author chooses (in this case, with playfulness and teasing and lots of smiles), and is always looking for someone who can "fix" him, usually a girl who also serves as his love interest. And that girl is Sophie. Duh. And she's always there for him, rain or shine, with the enemy or not, because he's the "broken boy", and broken boys, no matter how "broken" they may seem, are loved, by at least SOMEONE. 

      See, the thing for me is, Keefe is too PERFECT of a broken boy. He fits all the criteria perfectly. So perfectly, in fact, that sometimes I think Shannon's just trying to give Keefe all these sympathy points, so we can pity him. For Keefe to be a TRUE broken boy, he needs to BE broken and have the whole world against him, including Sophie. Otherwise, Sokeefe is an obviojs ship that's also just waiting to happen. 

      It's kinda exhausting, really, to see how both of these ships are unfolding. It's a good thing that Sophie is unmatchable, because then both boys can really sit down and think "How much do i really love her?" 

      Sophie's desire in life is to FIT IN. That's what she's striving for, that is one of her main motivators. "If I can save the world and be the hero, maybe then they'll accept me, the odd, brown-eyed, genetically mutated moonlark that I am." And Sophie being unmatchable is a further sign she'll never fit in. While her friends and peers around her marry, she'll be the odd one out once again.

      But I think that's going to be Sophie's character development. She's going to realize that IT'S OKAY TO STAND OUT. She's not going to feel self-conscious about herself, she's not going to be the PERFECT friend for EVERYBODY. She'll learn that she needs to embrace her imperfections. 

      And if either Fitz or Keefe can still love her, that's great. But I think it would be amazing if the last scene we see of Sophie is her standing alone, a confident look in her eyes, a steady smile on her face, ready to take on problems as the weird one. 

      Not as Sophie Vacker. Not as Sophie Sencen.

      But as Sophie Foster.

      -the Doodle Ninja

      (wow that was long)

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    • Wow. I like that as well, ending the series with Sophie standing proudly on her own. Good points, and this is coming from someone who considers Keefe one of her favorite characters of all time. 

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    • Thanks! Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I love Keefe too, as a character. He’s one of the many people on my “Characters who need a hug” list. ;)

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    • -the Doodle Ninja

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    • ^^^^Wow I love that!

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    • the Doodle Ninja (love your username btw)

      Thank you, thank you, thank you thanks you thank you!

      I can't express enough how much i want this to happen. You're right, Keefe seems like the perfect broken boy. I loved him in the early books, because i thought for once here was a joking kid who wasn't weighed down by his problems and it wasn't just a cover. But once i found out it was, i kind of got bored of him. (No offense anyone!) He's just so typical, in my opinion, and like you said, perfect in an inperfect way. Both Sophitz and Sokeefe are really cliche, and I think Sophie's using both boys as a crutch.

      And it is definitely part of sophie's character to be self-conscious, and the boys aren't really helping with that. Heck, she cried when Fitz called her beautiful, because no one who's opinion she'd cared about with that sort of thing had ever said that to her. If she realized that she didn't need a man to lean on, she could finally stand on her own two fet and become the Moonlark everyone thinks she is, and frankly, the Moonlark she wishes she was.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Also, speaking of Sophitz, I have something that I kinda want to happen in the next book, and if you really like Sophie, you might get mad at me. Sorry (sorta)

      So, I've kind of noticed that Sophie has a habit of forgetting her friends? She tends to think that this fight only affects her, and it's only her problem, and she forgets that others are suffering too. Especially when it comes to Keefe and Fitz. Everyone else just slips her mind, and she's caught up in her guy-problems-angst. Marella has had to be a wake-up call for Sophie plenty of times (calling her out on not inviting them to training, warning her not to be dramatic with her "i don't know who i love" thing) and she is just now becoming a member of the team. Sophie totally forgot about Marella in the first book, and we all know how well that ended.

      And here comes Fitz, comfessing his love, and here comes matchmaking, who up and karate chops that love with a big NOPE!!!! And here come the Neverseen with a HAHA WE HAVE YOUR SHADE!!!! But she's going to be so caught up in the "do i tell fitz, or do i not tell fitz" that she's going to forget other important things.

      Did you guys notice how Sophie acted when Tam was taken? She acted like he was dead. Dead. "Tam was gone...", and she kept refering to it as a sacrifice, as if he was never coming back. In her mind, he's unreachable, and something she can't focus on right now--and with that, there goes everything Linh is suffering through.

      Of course, Linh's not going to say anything. She knows Sophie's going through a lot, and she'll try to support her. But I think Sophie kind of takes her friends for granted. And with that, here comes Biana, who is one of Tam's good friends (cause they definitely got closer, with Tam assuming she was going to let him into Everglen to search the place, and she probably would have), and is upset about him being gone. With Sophie being all caught up in her Fitzy related problems, she's going to forget to comfort Linh, to be there for Linh like everyone else is there for her. So Biana gets close with Linh, and Linh gets close to Biana because of Alvar, and Biana decides to give Sophie a real wake-up call.

      I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but to me, it's like Keefe, Sophie and Fitz are in their own little bubble. When they're together, nothing else matters. And i may sound like I'm exaggerating a bit, but in my mind, I'm not. And everyone says Biana and Sophie are make-over besties--but really, theyre not. Sophe barely spoke to Biana in Flashback. When Alvar comes up, it's always Fitz first. Then, as an afterhtught if she's lucky, Sophie will wonder how Biana's doing. But not often. She's really caught up in her boy problems, and honestly, that could be part of the reason they're so far behind the Neverseen--because Sophie's not being the proud independent moonlark everyone wants her to be.

      There's a reason Tam still doesn't fully trust Sophie. She leans on others way too much, and he doesn't think she can protect his sister well enough for him to stay. But I don't think Sophie realizes that.

      Anyway, sorry for the long rant. Please don't hate me.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Honestly, I ship Sokeefe because of

      a. their whole connection thing during book 4

      b. Keefe calme]s her down when she's panicking

      c. they're very emotionally connected.  

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    • -Anu

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    • Yeah, that's true.

      But that whole "keefe calming down" thing really sets me on edge. I would hate to have someone that could control my emotions like that. If i was panicking, I would want to learn how to control it on my own. Because what happpens when Keefe's not there? Then Sophie can't think or focus, and that's not good.

      Again, just my personal opinion. Not a reason for or against a ship.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Backyard Windchimes, I totally agree with the whole “Sophie tends to forget her friends” thing. When Tam left, I was expecting a bigger reaction, but Sophie’s just like “meh”.

      And yes, it does feel like Sophie can neglect other friends for, most of the time, Fitz and Keefe. I REALLY want to see Biana and Sophie’s friendship grow, and get some more Dex time, and even learn more about Marella. Like I said before, I’m a bit exhausted with “Fitz’s-smile-is-adorable!” and “Aw-Keefe-is-so-cute-trying-to-cheer-me-up!” However heartwarming those fluffy scenes are...we’re in the seventh book people, so now it’s becoming old. 

      My question is: what’s it gonna take for Sophie to realize that she can do it BY HERSELF? 

      My sadistic side really wants all of Sophie’s friends to turn against her and Sophie finds herself fighting against the whole world. That would be epic. And dark, but I think this series needs a bit more hardcore darkness.

      -Doodle Ninja

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    • ^It's literally like you're reading my mind and putting it on paper. I've waited SO LONG FOR THIS!!!!!

      But the only thing is I don't think I could handle her friends turning on her like that. Then, she'd hate them. She got sooo mad at Dex when he made that circuit, and yeah, it was painful, but did you see his reaction??? He didn't want to do it!!! Yet you were still mad at him, when he was up and ready to cmmit treason and put his family in danger for you!!

      But yeah, one of her friends needs to shove some sense into her. Preferably Biana. Or Mrella. OR BOTH!!

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • We totally need some girl time in the next book XD

      -the Doodle Ninja

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    • And boy time. Can you imagine Dex Keefe Fitz Tam and Wylie just hanging out awkwardly while the girls are out shopping and not knowing what to talk about?

      backyard Windchimes

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    • My mind has been running in conspiracy modd for a while now and I have this theory based on the alicorns and ships. Keefe suggested Keefiana, which some people may know is the common name for Biana and Keefe. However, this was rejected. Wynnh, though, was accepted and was said to be a really good name. Wynnh is another name for Wylie and Linh... What do you think?

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    • ^Hahaha yeah, Keefiana isn't going to happen. But hopefully Tiana will. And Wynn. Backyard Windchimes

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    • 174.109.142.99 wrote:
      And boy time. Can you imagine Dex Keefe Fitz Tam and Wylie just hanging out awkwardly while the girls are out shopping and not knowing what to talk about?

      backyard Windchimes

      Oh my moons, yes!! We so need that! Again, these relationships must also be built more. I want to see Keefe and Fitz acting like besties again! I thought it was so adorable when in Flashback they mentioned something about Keefe and Fitz being an odd, yet inseperable pair of best friends when they were little. And is Dex on good terms with Fitz? What does Tam think of them? And WYLIE!! What are his thoughts? How does his behavior change around different people? I know it’s in Sophie’s perspective but...how bout she just has deep conversations with everybody! I love the characters Shannon has introduced, but if she could develop them more, that would be awesome



      -the Doodle Ninja

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    • Personally after reading flashback as far as I can see, Fitz is not dragging Sophie down they’re working together. As far as a long term relationship, I think that Fitz is perfect because he’s not unstable like Keefe is, he has great in-laws, and he can support her and help her through her duty as the moonlark. I also don’t think that Fitz is just a “girl crush” if Sophie literally signs up for the matchmaking (something she’s never wanted to do) just so she’s can see his name on her list. You know it’s a girl crush if you can’t see yourself being with that person forever. But Sophie and Fitz can so see each other if the only name they want to see on their lists are each other

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    • Doodle Ninja

      as soon as I read your comment, the headcanons exploded

      1. Little five year old keefe with his messed up hair pointing at something and nearly pulling six year old fitz off his feet trying to get to it

      2. Keefe and Tam arguing and Fitz and Wylie just sitting there with a bowl of popcorn between them

      3. Keefe and Fitz arguing and Tam slowly reaching over and grabbing a handful of popcorn out of the bowl in Wylie’s lap

      4. All four of them hiding out at Fitz’s place and eavesdropping on the girl’s boy conversations and fighting for who gets to look through the keyhole

      5. Them crashing the girl’s hangouts with water guns and then “retreating” when Linh turns it back on them

      6. Keefe and Tam deciding to prank Fitz and Wylie and practically attacking them with makeup and then Biana yelling at Keefe and Tam because they ruined all her favorite makeup kits

      Backyard Windchimes 

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    • ^^ and your right, Sophie and Fitz honestly think they belong together. And they’re both very comfortable with each other when they’re working together, with Sophie referring to it in Lodestar as “putting on a pair of comfy running shoes”. And you’re right, Keefe can be unstable, but he is getting better. He’s stepping back and being what  Sophie needs, not what he needs. And the whole unmatchable thing IS going to cause some tension, whether we want it to or not. There’s a reason Fitz went on his whole speech about not being able to handle being a bad match. There’s going to be drama. Now the only question is, will they come out stronger or will they break because of it?

      And with the whole “girlish crush” thing, I think most people refer to it like that because of the Mind Over Heart thing. Sophie’s feelings for Fitz at incredibly obvious, and are pretty much stated in every sentence that even remotely involves him. Her feelings for Keefe however (whatever they may be) are more subtle. 

      Honestly, I don’t think it’s a silly crush anymore. It may have started that way, but Fitz really means something to her now. She cares what he thinks of her, and him calling her beautiful made her cry. 

      sorry that wasn’t very well written. But I hope that made sense. It could go either way. 

      Backyard Windchimes 

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    • Okay, so I just saw this, read the, like, first five comments, and commented, so sorry if I missed something. From a writing standpoint, Kam and Detz would be easier to write because there's just so much, y'know, to write about, and it just makes sense because if they did have a crush on each other, and what's with the uptight elves, they'd all be trying to push their crush away. Also, me, I really like writing the 'discovery' part of the relationship, the part where they just go, 'oh wow, I really love this person', which is really just what my fanfic (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13162045/1/A-Confession) is about, and Foster-Keefe is really good for that. I did skip that part, but I was planning to write a separate thing. I wrote this thing without proofreading or checking if it made sense, etc, so sorry.

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    • That is true, actually. Honestly, if Keefe wasn’t so caught up ion Sophie he could prombably like Tam. I personally love Kim and Detz is cute too

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • What’s the analysis for Linh and Sophie?

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    • ^not to discourage you or anything, but honestly, it's pretty unlikely. Sophie and Linh don't really interact that much. And Sophie has never expressed an interest in her as anything other than a friend. I can't really see Shannon taking that route.

      Not to say Solinh wouldn't be adorable, because it TOTALLY WOULD BE

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • I’m just copy and pasting this from another board that I wrote on, it is from my post:

      Wow, this is complicated. Can I just say that it isn’t about analyzing and giving Fitz and Keefe points for how they do things, but about who will give her the most love and care and happiness? And who she will love back her WHOLE life, not just during her teen years when she has a crush on whoever? It doesn’t matter if Fitzphie is clichey, or Keefe coddles Sophie to much, or whether they both sometimes have issues. It’s about love and care. I will point out something that I just noticed:

      Keefe has issues and repeatedly tries to give up himself (and sometimes his life) for her. He also feels way to guilty for things he shouldn’t. However, though he was a wreck in Neverseen, some parts of Lodestar, and a lot in some parts of Nightfall, in Flashback he was really trying to get better and was letting things go, like how he felt a reasonable amount of guilt about the fake caches, let it go, and moved on. And Fitz is comepletely reasonable and awesome like that in the beginning (save for his anger in Exile) and middle of the series. Now, then he becomes and angry lunatic in Flashback. That isn’t good. Fitz needs to learn to be wary about Alvar, and still be mad at him, but SHOULDNT TRY TO KILL HIS BROTHER JUST BECAUSE HE GOT UP FOR A WALK BECAUSE HE HEARD NOISES! Yes I’ll admit Alvar ran straight back to Neverseen, but that was after Fitz tried to kill him. Yes Fitz had reasons, but he does not know Alvar’s side of the story. Alvar could have a perfectly good reason for joining Neverseen, something that happened before Fitz was born. Also, you’re mad at him because he’s killing and kidnapping people, and then you’re going kill because of it? Keefe learned he had issues and dealt with it. I’ll admit that Fitz hasn’t had these anger issues for long, but seriously. And this isn’t even a rant about how Sokeefe is the best. I’m neutral, honestly leaning toward Dexphie even though I know it sunk. And I don’t want to cause hate. No offense to anyone. Thank you for reading.

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    • Honestly, everyone keeps going on about Fitz's anger issues. And yeah, he took it too far in Flashback. And it's hard to imagine his point of view sometimes, but i feel really bad for him.

      Remember that Alvar was someone Fitz cared about. A lot. He was the older brother, the one you could get annoyed at and it would be okay, because he loved you and you loved him back. Alvar was a part of his family, part of the world that Fitz had lived in all his life.

      Alvar's betrayal isn't as black and white as it seems. Alvar leaving is more than him betraying his family--it represents everything that Fitz knew, everything that had made his life so amazing falling to pieces. This rebel group is coming and destroying his home. They kidnapped and hurt the people he loved. And one of the people he loves is with them? It hurts--it hurts a lot. And while Keefe's mother had never been totally kind to him, Fitz's older brother was family, and he loved him. Alvar leaving meant the stares, the whispers, the shame building in his chest for something he didn't do. Fitz was never a part of this, and yet he's the one being punished inside for it. His parents, his sister, they're all being gazed at with disapproval like it was their fault. But it wasn't. It really wasn't. And before this, everything had been happening to someone else. It didn't fully register until he saw his brother disappear with the Neverseen, and it just comes crashing.

      And now he's back? And he's...normal again. This is what Fitz wanted. All he wants is his brother back, even if he doesn't realize it. Alvar hurt him. People talk about Keefe's walls? Fitz doesn't want to get hurt like that again, see his family get hurt like that again. And some distant and hidden part of him hopes Alvar is really back, some part of him that his mind can't get to, can't crush. So when Alvar turns out to be exactly what Fitz says...that small part of him, the one that had been holding on? It lets go.

      I think Fitz trying to hurt his brother isn't just anger. It's guilt as well. Guilt that he doesn't know what to do with, or how to handle it or why it's still there after all this time. He knows that none of this would've happened if he'd noticed what his brother was up to. And the source of all this guilt, all this shame is right in front of him....what else do you expect him to do? He's trying to make his mistakes right, fix the mistakes he thinks he made.

      Yes. He almost killed his brother. He did, and that's a fact. But Sophie brought him out of it, right? He needs Sophie. He does. Simple fact. At this moment, Fitz needs Sophie, because of what he's going through, and what she's been through. What if this entire series was from Fitz's point of view, and it was between Sophie and Linh instead of Fitz and Keefe? We wouldn't think of who would make Sophie the happiest--just Fitz, because that's who's life we're living. What happens if Fitz doesn't find anyone else? Sophie was the only one keeping him from doing something he would regret for the rest of his life.

      I'm not saying Keefoster is bad, or that Sophitz should happen. I'm neutral. And I'm sorry if I offended anybody. this is just my opinion.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • That is actually a really good point! Wow, how is Shannon going to decide who to put Sophie with or keep or single?

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    • ^^That was.....AMAZING!!!

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    • @Backyard Windchimes may I have permission to repost that on the Sophie and Fitz page? We’re having a similar discussion to that and it would be cool to have some extra input! ( I’ll give you credit of course!)

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    • ^Yeah, go ahead! Please do.

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    • I feel like no one reads this far down but I'm gonna post it anyway lol. So I feel like fitz isn't good for sophie. Not that he wouldn't treat her right, he'd treat her like a princess but that's aside from the point🤗 But sophie doent need someone to put her on a throne. She needs some to hold her and treasure her forever, not someone who will get mad or yell at her. Yes, they COULD have a successful life together, content. But, Sophie doesn't need gifts and money and perfection. Keefe always gave way better gifts in my opinion, necklace he made for his mom, pins on her cast, etc. On that hand, even sofitz shippers know keefe loves her. Shannon messenger said she hadn't chosen a boy 4 her tho, which makes me feel like fitz isn't the one for Sophie. I ship sokeefe but overall i think Sophie doesn't need someone who is NOT getting and and/or making her nervous.

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    • ^You're right, Sophie doesn't need someone to put her on a throne. And Fitz loves her as well. He may get mad at times, but he's gotten better at focusing his anger away from people he loves. He wasn'tmad at Sophie because of the incident with Alvar, when if it had happened in Exile, he might've been. He's trying to change because of Sophie, just like Keefe did. It's just a bit harder for him. But he's trying. And it doesn't matter who gives better gifts, because it's the thought that counts.

      Also, I'm confused on your last sentence. The way it sounds, with the double negative, it's like you ship Sophitz, but I know you don't, so I'm going to respond as if you don't.

      Her being nervous is completely natural. It's what happens when you have a crush on someone. She just has to get used to being with him. Keefe and Sophie give me such a brother/sister vibe because of how calm she is with him. She won't be nervous forever.

      Anyway, that's just me. Sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean to. Both ships are entirely possible.

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • He would have gotten mad at Sophie. Then Keefe said something along the lines of "As your best friend, I'll have to stop you before you get super mad at Sophie" or something.

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    • Fitz sends warm golden threads of warmth through her mind, Keefe sends cool ice blue breezes. While writing, many authors use the colour blue to show coldness, aloofness, lack of emotion, and unfriendliness. As for the temperature, warmth is generally considered more friendly than coolness.

      I know this is a small moment, but I think it shows that Shannon Messenger subconsciously wants Sophitz to happen. As many SoKeefe shippers say, she loves Fitzphie with her heart, and, in my opinion, will make it happen.

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    • Why would Keefe smile about her emotions then?  You can't say that he misread them, he's been shown to be one of the most powerful empaths.

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    • Most powerful Empath? He's a kid, and from my memory has never been referred to as one of the most powerful Empaths. Sophie just has strong emotions; Cassius too could feel her emotions without touching her. He's average.

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    • I think Keefe is a bit powerful, but he's not some super-powerful empath, he's just pretty good. 

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    • "'My empathy mentor warned me when she saw how strong my ability was'"

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    • Which book is this from? Page number?

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    • ^Nightfall, I think, before they contact Lady Gisela together. And yeah, i think it's mentioned a couple times that Keefe is definitely a strong empath. I mean, i don't think Stina can sense Sophie's emotions through the air, and she's an empath.

      Also, Mr. Forkle says sophie's emotions are stronger because of her inflicting, but Bronte's an inflictor and his emotions aren't broadcasted. Maybe it's because of her genetics?

      Backyard Windchimes

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    • Blue can also relate to calming and warm gold threads is not neccesarily a good thing especially since Sophie has had so many encouters with fire that she perfers coolness to heat

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    • Yeah, i looked up the meaning of blue and this is what i got...

      Blue represents both the sky and the sea, and is associated with open spaces, freedom, intuition, imagination, expansiveness, inspiration, and sensitivity. Blue also represents meanings of depth, trust, loyalty, sincerity, wisdom, confidence, stability, faith, heaven, and intelligence.

      And one of the big sokeefe moments was when they were flying on sylveny over the sea

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    • silveny

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    • Yeah sophie and keeffe have really strong trust because no matter how many times its been tested and they struggle they come back stronger.

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    • Also at one point in nightfall it says that Keefe sent pure white energy instead of blue into Sophie's mind

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    • I say foster-Keefe for the win.To me fits is holding her back science she cares how she looks acts etc. she hasent had a change in her character scencr book 1 so after hse gets over fitz I think it will be big but good turning point for her. Also I think Keefe and sophoe should be together only bc the pitch each other to do better, thing out side the box, and they both no what it likes to feels like an outsider. 

      THEORY

      u believe Sophie likes fitz in her mind(like he was the first elf she meat and showed her the elf world) but I believe in her heart she likes Keefe bc when sophoe enhances Keefe he sees her emotional center and I think he knows in her heart she loves him. BUT SHE IS SOOOOO OBLIVIOUS HE LIKES HERRRRRRR

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    • Silverwolf0618 wrote:
      "'My empathy mentor warned me when she saw how strong my ability was'"

      We’re was that from and witch book?

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    • -Doodle Ninja wrote: "It's a good thing that Sophie is unmatchable, because then both boys can really sit down and think "How much do i really love her?""

      Doodle Ninja, I LOVE this!!! I think that is a GREAT point!!! I feel like that is a really good way for the Fitz and Keefe to figure out Sokeefe or Sofitz. I've never really thought of that before. The thing is though, I think neither one of them will really move on. Fitz and Keefe will keep liking Sophie no matter who's she's with.

      Another point I want to bring up is, what if Sophie marries somebody random and never heard of? Maybe like in the Epilogue of the last book she will meet a stranger on the street or something and they will end up together? I feel like hatt would be a great plot twist, but then again, being my biased self, I really don't want that to happen.

      Honestly, I'm kinda getting fed-up with the whole love-traingle deal. But then again, i'm not and I love all the "romantic" moments in the books!!! Personally, I am Sophitz, but after reading all these comments, I feel like the Sophitz relationship is really weak, but then again I love swquirming with happiness in all the Sophitz moments in the book!! I want it to prevail, but I'm not sure. My head wants Sophitz to the end, but my heart wants something to happen with matchmaking / new romantic feelings / Keefe confessing his crush / FITZ GETTING HIS FIRST LIST!!! / FITZ"S FIRST WINNOWING GALA!!! that will change the game. Wait, I just realized. What will happen with Fitz's first list??!!!! Will he have a Winnowing Gala??? He already submitted his packet, so he might get a list!!! Shannon, if you read these comments, PLEASE INCLUDE FITZ GETTING HIS LIST OR SOMETHING RELATED IN BOOK 8 OR 9!!!!!

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    • 146.135.19.252 wrote:
      Hey guys, I'm going to keep my opinions to myself until we get a discussion going, but I'd like to discuss ships from a WRITING point of view, and with open minds. Based on what the books seem to lead up to, and based on what we know baout Shannon, and based on clues, and based on what we know makes a good story, what do you guys think of the ships and how they'll actually turn out? I don't want "MY SHIP IS BETTER", I want good, solid reasons- Based on what we know about stories and how they work.This is for wannabe writers, hehe. Any takers? 

      -SRM

      So in my opinion Sophie SHOULDN'T be with anyone. Let's start with Fitz shall we?!

      Fitz is her crush in the beginning andThey both like each other. But she's always so self-concious around him that it's distracting her from being her FULL potential. That's one of the reasons why the Neverseen are ahead on every step. I know they probably will look cute together but I just don't see how she will be focused in what she's trying to accomplish. So Fitz is a NO.

      On to Keefe shall we?!

      SOOOooooOo Keefe liked Sophie and he knows Sophie likes Fitz but he will keep on liking sophie no matter what. It will take time for him to let go. They would be a cute couple too but it will also distract her. You guys know how Keefe likes to tease people. Teasing her will distract her. How about in a important mission and in a very serious momment Keefe starts teasing, if he does someone could get SERIOUSLY hurt.

      This is why I think Sophie shouldn't be with anyone. Her name is afterall called "Moonlark"! Remeber what that means. Moonlark is basically meaning she's on her OWN. But with guidance from the Black Swan. That's my reason.

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    • Emmabear13 wrote:
      BlackSwanSRM wrote:
      Anyone have any theories WITH PROOFS to back them up for how Fitzphie would end, or why it would stay strong? Not "they're perfect" mushiness or "bc I want Shannon to". Think about it like Shannon does as the author, and based on what we know about their character traits. 
      My theory is that it will be caused by a series of two or three events. A) the matchmaking: will Sophie tell him, or will she try to hide the fact that she is unmatchable? Fitz's reaction either both scenarios will be critical. If she tells him, he WILL be affected. He may demand that the Black Swan tell them her parents, and when they refuse, both of them will be angry and scared. If Sophie doesn't tell Fitz, then she clearly doesn't have enough confidence in their relation to believing Fitz will love her as a bad match. Her refusal to tell Fitz the trust will cause tension, but may not break them up. It will only be one crack in the glass of their relationship.   B) Something will have to happen with Keefe. My theory is that Keefe will get critically injured in book 8, and as a result, he'll either lose his memories as Alvar did, have a shattered mind, or get injured to the point where he needs to be sedated 24/7. Not unlike Sophie and Fitz's injuries in Flashback. The end result will be Sophie having to look into Keefe's memories. Maybe one of the only surviving memories Keefe has of her, and suddenly Sophie will see every 'gold' memory Keefe was trying to hide, finally cueing Sophie in on Keefe's feelings for her. Keefe will wake up, and admit that Sophie wasn't supposed to see any of those memories. He'll ask if they can act like it never happened, but Sophie will walk away know in great detail just how deeply Keefe cares about her. And then she'll start to be torn between her head and heart. C) The last push to shatter Sophie and Fitz's relationship will be a disagreement. Now, this can be about anything. The matchmaking, the Neverseen, Keefe, etc. But this will be their first real disagreement, and it will end with both of them frustrated at each other and regrating all the drama their relationship has caused. Someone will say "I'm not ready for this," or "I can't be with you until I know the trust about..." or "I need to think this over." I do not think Sophitz will split until the end, of book 8. Book 9 will deal with them trying to realize that they work better as friends, and once the Neverseen are defeated, Sophie and Keefe will have a well-deserved chat about their feeling about each other. Maybe under Calla's tree? Well, that's just I think. Honestly, if I were Sharron, I would have made Fitz and Sophie get together in Flashback too. It needed to happen. Only once we see how the ship fails can we focus on Sophie and Keefe's relationship. Plus, Sharron loves to mess with her characters. She'll give them the happy ending they deserve, I have no doubt about that.
       

      I ship Fitz X Sophie C: 

      SOPHIE shouldn't be shipped because if our ships don't come true half will be happy half will be sad. Also then "war" might happen.

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    • 67.172.159.92 wrote:
      -Doodle Ninja wrote: "It's a good thing that Sophie is unmatchable, because then both boys can really sit down and think "How much do i really love her?""
      Doodle Ninja, I LOVE this!!! I think that is a GREAT point!!! I feel like that is a really good way for the Fitz and Keefe to figure out Sokeefe or Sofitz. I've never really thought of that before. The thing is though, I think neither one of them will really move on. Fitz and Keefe will keep liking Sophie no matter who's she's with.

      Another point I want to bring up is, what if Sophie marries somebody random and never heard of? Maybe like in the Epilogue of the last book she will meet a stranger on the street or something and they will end up together? I feel like hatt would be a great plot twist, but then again, being my biased self, I really don't want that to happen.

      Honestly, I'm kinda getting fed-up with the whole love-traingle deal. But then again, i'm not and I love all the "romantic" moments in the books!!! Personally, I am Sophitz, but after reading all these comments, I feel like the Sophitz relationship is really weak, but then again I love swquirming with happiness in all the Sophitz moments in the book!! I want it to prevail, but I'm not sure. My head wants Sophitz to the end, but my heart wants something to happen with matchmaking / new romantic feelings / Keefe confessing his crush / FITZ GETTING HIS FIRST LIST!!! / FITZ"S FIRST WINNOWING GALA!!! that will change the game. Wait, I just realized. What will happen with Fitz's first list??!!!! Will he have a Winnowing Gala??? He already submitted his packet, so he might get a list!!! Shannon, if you read these comments, PLEASE INCLUDE FITZ GETTING HIS LIST OR SOMETHING RELATED IN BOOK 8 OR 9!!!!!

      SOPHITZ ALL THE WAY!!!!!

      I NEED TO KNOW Fitz first list C:

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    • Mint-chocolate-mallowmelt wrote:
      Fitz sends warm golden threads of warmth through her mind, Keefe sends cool ice blue breezes. While writing, many authors use the colour blue to show coldness, aloofness, lack of emotion, and unfriendliness. As for the temperature, warmth is generally considered more friendly than coolness.

      I know this is a small moment, but I think it shows that Shannon Messenger subconsciously wants Sophitz to happen. As many SoKeefe shippers say, she loves Fitzphie with her heart, and, in my opinion, will make it happen.

      MY FAVPOURITE ONEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

      FITZPHIE ALL THE WAYYYYYYYYYYYY

      I LOVE THIS COMMENT I AGREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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    • Keeper Of The Lost Cities Fan wrote:

      146.135.19.252 wrote:
      Hey guys, I'm going to keep my opinions to myself until we get a discussion going, but I'd like to discuss ships from a WRITING point of view, and with open minds. Based on what the books seem to lead up to, and based on what we know baout Shannon, and based on clues, and based on what we know makes a good story, what do you guys think of the ships and how they'll actually turn out? I don't want "MY SHIP IS BETTER", I want good, solid reasons- Based on what we know about stories and how they work.This is for wannabe writers, hehe. Any takers? 

      -SRM

      So in my opinion Sophie SHOULDN'T be with anyone. Let's start with Fitz shall we?!

      Fitz is her crush in the beginning andThey both like each other. But she's always so self-concious around him that it's distracting her from being her FULL potential. That's one of the reasons why the Neverseen are ahead on every step. I know they probably will look cute together but I just don't see how she will be focused in what she's trying to accomplish. So Fitz is a NO.

      On to Keefe shall we?!

      SOOOooooOo Keefe liked Sophie and he knows Sophie likes Fitz but he will keep on liking sophie no matter what. It will take time for him to let go. They would be a cute couple too but it will also distract her. You guys know how Keefe likes to tease people. Teasing her will distract her. How about in a important mission and in a very serious momment Keefe starts teasing, if he does someone could get SERIOUSLY hurt.

      This is why I think Sophie shouldn't be with anyone. Her name is afterall called "Moonlark"! Remeber what that means. Moonlark is basically meaning she's on her OWN. But with guidance from the Black Swan. That's my reason.

      I totally agree with you about Sophie, and I love your point about how she’s a Moonlark. I don’t feel like she should be with anybody, because I think the real reason she hasn’t made any progress against the Neverseen is because she’s too caught up in her angsty “who do I love” triangle, and isn’t focusing on the real problem. She’s too busy blushing and having fluttery heartbeats to focus on what needs to be focused on. Even after Tam was taken by the Neverseen and she went to get matched.

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    • Honestly, I don’t think it’s a silly crush anymore. It may have started that way, but Fitz really means something to her now. She cares what he thinks of her, and him calling her beautiful made her cry. 

      Backyard Windchimes 

      Backyard Windchimes, I totally agree. I don't like it when people say "Sophitz is just a silly crush" because it's not. They are cognates, they have gone through trials most elves have never experinced, they had to experience death of others (or near death) of themselves and others, captivity, and other things. They truly mean something to eachother now. 

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    • I agree with you on some level but ALSO I think we've seen how much can change in one single book. Not to mention, Fitz is the golden boy from the golden family and Sophie would be considered a Bad Match. Let's go to Keefe: his mom is already with the Neverseen, Lord Cassius was kicked out of nobility for that reason and he's living on the Waves of Wimpiness (Shores of Solace) and things can't be really any worse for Keefe. But, in Flashback it is mentioned that Keefe is going to go to the elite levels and, let's face it, Fitz is coming for the elite mix too. So, honestly, I think she shoudn't have either-or any for that matter- boy. And if she picks Keefe over Fitz, obviously  he'll grow farther because he already had his chance. And if Keefe confesses his feelings and Sophie rejects him he'll probably leave the Black Swan becuase when Magnate Leto said "Why else would you join the Black Swan?" he answered:

      "Umm...Have you seen how cute Foster is?" - Fashback

      - Farra

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    • @Farra

      Fitz being a golden boy is totally true. Legacy is going to be a rollercoatser for Sophitz shippers, because he’s really going to have decide how much he loves her, and if he’s willing to let his reputation go for her. And Sophie herself is going to have to figure out how much she trusts him, and decide whether she wants to tell him or not. But she’s only considered a bad match until her parents are found, which i’m Convinced will happen in legacy. Plus, this is Sophie the Great. She’s a hero. If they can hold out until after legacy, chances are the worst will be over. And if not....

      Honestly, I don’t know if Sophie will ever be able to see her feelings for Keefe. Say Sophitz breaks up this book. Next book, most of it will be her wallowing in her sadness, and her angst about how she wishes it had never happened and how she wants him back. She can’t get over that in noe book without it feeling rushed, especially knowing Sophie and how long she holds on to things.

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    • @Backyard Windchimes

      I totally agree with you. Really, the rest of the books will be based on Legacy and what goes down in it. I honestly think either she breaks up with Fitz or a huge fight happens  with the Neverseen (rooting for an epic fight) it will affect everything. And another theory I have is a little far-fetched but maybe they defeat the Neverseen and they have new enemies. But if my last theory is true then the series will be extended a little bit. I mean, you can't have an enemy that is in two books only. The enemies have to be stronger. As for her feelings for Keefe. Keefe was right in his short story that she's heard the thoughts of everyone and they all think lowly of her, therefore, she thinks everyone thinks the same. I honestly like Sokeefe but my hopes are getting dimmer. Also, if Keefe and Sophie don't becpme a couple then I don't think he will be with anyone. Because let's anylize the chracters he knows best:


      1. Biana. There has been lot's of paragraphs dedicated to why Keefina can't become a thing so I'll keep pretty much all of this short. First, it is stated in Nightfall that Keefe showed no interest in Biana and actually tries to make her not like him. Chances are very low that they get together. Little fans root for it, but for those who, never lose you faith in Shannon Messenger! It is also started in Nightfall that she's like her sister to him. But, let's not forget in the first book Fitz said he saw Sophie as a "little  sister" but look where we are now. 


      2. Linh. I'll keep this short and simple because I never did much research into the chemistry with these two unlikely candidates.First, it is hinted that Linh like Fitz and Wylie. Linh isn't really showing interest in Keefe and neither is Keefe. So pretty much end of story, unless something happens between these two in Legacy.


      3. Marella. It is shown in Nightfall that Marella was into Tam by giving him "her flirtiest smile" and when Biana was talking about how people might have used Linh to get to Tam, and Tam denyed it,  then Marella said "Are you kidding? How you seen you?".


      4. Tam. Tam is also to have shown interest in Marella and Biana. There is a future for Tam and one of the two girls. It might change thought since he was "recruited" by the Neverseen and only Keefe would kind of understand the harship he would've endured.


      5. Dex. Since the epic Dephie fail and that ship had crashed it is pretty safe to assume that he won't be looking for anyone soon.

      Unless they bring some random person from Foxfire or maybe even the Forbidden Cities, he won't be getting anyone anytime soon.

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    • I know nobody reads at the bottom, but I'm bored so, we are going to analyse ALL possible ships for Sophie without LGBTQ pairs. 1. Fitz

      First, let me explain. Sophitz and Sokeefe are the two main ships that are anticipated and expected. Because of this, neither of these will happen. a author wants to surprise their reader, and if one of these ships happen that is not surprising. Because of this, I believe Sophie will end single. I'm Sophitz, so it SERIOUSLY pains me to say that, but it's true. That aside, Sophitz started as a silly crush, but that's over now. They really care for each other. They are cognates, and that trust is perfect for a relationship. Like c'mon, Sophie CRIED when Fitz called her beautiful! The only problem is, Fitz has anger issues when he is grieving. If they get in a relationship, and something happens, Fitz will take out his anger on Sophie, and that's not good. Yeah, I'm Sophitz, just warning.

      2. Keefe

      Personally, I feel like Keefe is TOO obsessed with Sophie. He only joined the Black Swan because of Sophie. When they swore fealty to the Black Swan, everyone shared how many tries it took them to open the black cube, but Keefe just looks away, because it is implied it took him lots of tries. It took him lots of tries because the only reason he joined the Black Swan was because of Sophie! Yes, he cares about her, but it's gone too far. He only does things for Sophie. That's just my opinion. But still, they work together well and care about each other. I feel like they could be in a relationship as well, and Sophie would be happy, it just wouldn't be as good as Sophie and Fitz. Keefe is the "broken boy." And Sophie is the boy to "heal" him. That's Sokeefe in a nutshell. The thing is, Keefe and Sophie lack emotional connections and trust, such as Sophi and Fitz's cognate. Sophie is just there to be Keefe emotional support. (the broken boy thing)I sound like a hater, but after reading what I wrote, I honestly feel like Sokeefe could work out, but I'm still Sophitz. (but more Sokeefe after reading what I wrote)

      3. Dex

      This ship is sunk. They kissed, and there was no spark. It just wasn't meant to happen. Also, Dex is technically Sophie's adoptive cousin, which even though they aren't (as we know of) actually related, the family tree would get complicated with "cousins" marrying. I do think Dex is sweet though, but Sodex is not happening. Shannon confirmed it.

      4. Tam

      This is only here because I said I would put ALL possibilities. Tam is nice, and he is part of Sophie's friend group, but they have never expressed romantic feelings for each other, so this is a VERY unlikely ship. Also, it has never been mentioned or implied, so it would be a very strange ship to introduce. Also, Sophie didn't really care when Tam went with the Neverseen, so that shows they don't care for each other much.

      5. Wylie Once again, only here because I had to. Wylie is several years older, so this ship seems very strange. They have also never expressed feelings, and Wylie was introduced very late in the books.

      6. Jensi

      Again, because I had to. Jensi was Sophie's second friend at Foxfire, but they have grown very distant since book 3, and Jensi has not been mentioned ever since. This ship is not happening because they never expressed feelings, (well, maybe Jensi liked her) and Jensi has since been discarded from the books.

      7. Valin

      I put this as a joke. Just no. Ew.

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    • I ship Keefoster/Sokeefe/Keephie so hard. Like, SO hard! But before I get into that I just want to get a few things down:

      Okay, so I like Fitz. I really do. I completely understand why Fitzphie/Sophitz is a thing, and I was an avid shipper of those two for a while. But I'm definitely team Keefoster now, and I feel like all you Fitzphie shippers who honestly just can't fathom why on Earth we would do that deserve a thorough explanation.

      Also, please note that this is all based on personal opinion, and what I think is in ideal ship. I can't speak for the rest of you, so please, if I make a generalization that offends you, I didn't mean to! :')

      DISCLAIMER! I have not read Flashback! My evaluation is based on the information given up till Nightfall! I hope you'll read anyway, lol.

      Okay, I have so much to say here I'm not even sure where to begin, but lets just start (eek imma be jumping all over the place I can already feel it lol).

      1) I really shipped Fitzphie in the beginning. But a small part of why Keefoster took the prize is because Fitzphie doesn't go anywhere. Let me explain what I mean by that. I do not mean that it doesn't look like Fitzphie is going to be canon, because I definitely don't think that, lol. What I mean is, Sophie and Fitz's relationship hasn't really progressed or changed at all since the first book. They've gotten to know each other a little more, yes. They've become Cognates, obviously. But when Sophie looks at Fitz, she feels a fluttery feeling in her heart, feels captivated by his very, very teal gaze, and feels like she's gonna implode every time he flashes a movie star smile. And that's cute- really, it is. It's a great starting point for a ship. But thing, is it never got past that starting point. Fitz is still this model of perfection in Sophie's mind, and though I think it's sweet how much she appreciates his 'Captain Perfect'ness, it frustrates me that they haven't reached a deeper understanding. Fitzphie, for me, is a little too sweet and simple, and while those are great, ideal things to have in an in-real-life relationship, I also feel like for a book, it's too... well... boring. Not to offend anyone.

      Keefoster was nothing like that. Upon first meeting, Sophie thought Keefe was a slightly annoying mischief-maker who didn't take anything seriously. Over the course of the books, there relationship developes, something that was very lacking in Fitzphie's execution. Sokeefe (I'm just gonna switch between ship names if that's fine with y'all) progressed and changed an incredible amount, with Keefe slowly revealing his broken, scared, darker side. Underneath all Keefe's quips and jokes is a scarred, hurt boy, and Sophie comes to realize that. In the beginning, when she looked at Keefe she just saw his trademark smirk and styled hair, rolled her eyes, and begrudgingly accepted his presence. Now when she looks at him she sees every little bit of hurt he's hiding behind that carefree smirk. Sees everything he's afraid of showing in his eyes. She values him and wants to protect him. Keefoster just feels so real. While Fitzphie feels like this pure, fairy-tale-esque story that's almost too good to be true. (I know that's why a lot of people ship it, but to me it feels almost forced. Again, just my opinion.)

      2) Keefe just feels so much more complex, to be honest. Fitz is sweet. He's Captain Perfect. Wonderboy. We like him (or... most of us do). But Fitz seems to lack depth. On the surface, he's the model of perfection. Dig a little deeper, and you see that he's pressured by his family's status. He's worried about disappointing them. He wants to go through the Elite Levels at Foxfire and make his family proud, but is still selfless enough to throw that all away for Sophie's sake. Dig even further and you see that he's got anger issues. He's not really perfect. He gets mad- violent even- and does things he regrets. But that's really all there is to it. (That I've seen. Once again, haven't read Flashback.) Keefe, however, is this intricate, complicated, fatally flawed person, which makes him so much more relatable. On the surface he's a rebel. A classic bad-boy who skips school and teases mercilessly. But he's also scared. He's struggling to understand how he fits in the world- struggling to separate the grays that make up his world into blacks and whites- struggling to find out where the 'hard lines' he won't cross are- struggling with his love and hate for his parents. He's afraid that he'll never live up to what people want him to be, but at the same time he doesn't want to conform to expectations, and wants to be him- whoever he really is. Throughout it all, he makes so many mistakes, and he'll continue to make them- and through it all, he's terrified that Sophie will hate him.

      "Just...promise you won't hate me..."

      "I'll never hate you, Keefe..."

      ~Keefe Sencen and Sophie Foster, Neverseen.

      Sophie is the one constant in his life. Fitz is his only other real friend, but he can't tell Fitz about the real him- the Vackers are his escape. His paradise away from the mess that is his life. If he allowed the darkness to spill over into happy-Vacker-land, it would stop being that for him. He would have nowhere to go that the dark side of his life doesn't influence, and he can't- can't- let that happen.

      "I used to wish I was a Vacker. I'd be over at their house, dreading the moment I had to go home. But nope. I'm a Sencen. And it just keeps getting worse and worse." ~Keefe, Neverseen.

      That's where Sophie comes in. Sophie is this incredible enigma, who, even though she knows how 'messed up' Keefe is, she doesn't leave him. She doesn't judge him. She still cares for him and protects him, and it's something he can't really fathom. Why hasn't she left yet? Honestly, why hasn't she run screaming to the hills? But she doesn't. She stays by his side like an angel on his shoulder or a guiding light. One that he desperately needs. And that's not it- you can just keep diving and diving and diving through the layers that make Keefe Sencen. They're practically endless.

      3) Keefe is a positive influence on Sophie, too, weird as that sounds considering that we just went through and listed all the things that make him flawed, lol. I've heard a lot of people say that Fitz has a good impact on Sophie's self-esteem, but honestly, I just think... that's... not... true? To be completely honest, Sophie seems more nervous about her flaws when she's around Fitz. And if you won't take my word for it, take Shannon Messenger's. When Keefe says that Sophie is nervous about sharing her secrets with Fitz, Sophie's response is as follows:

      "Well... yeah. But, have you met you? You're like, Captain Perfect! And I'm..."

      Fitz doesn't mean to make Sophie self-conscious, and I can't really fault him for being a great guy. But nevertheless, Sophie does feel more relaxed around Keefe. The secrets she was too nervous to share with Fitz were ones she'd already told Keefe (or ones he'd figured out, both by being an Empath and by knowing her so well). Being with Keefe is safe and relaxed, because they both know each other well enough that they understand that the other will accept them for who they are, flaws and all. It makes their relationship so sweet, and I think that's something that relates to real life, too. You're probably never going to find a Fitz. Learn to accept a Keefe, and trust that they'll accept you too. You can see how relaxed Keefe and Sophie are with each other with every playful remark, quick quip, and teasing elbow. They've both cried in front of each other, messed up in front of the other, and betrayed the other, but have always managed to come back stronger for it. (Whereas, when Sophie and Fitz went through a hard time in Exile, things went back to exactly how they'd been afterwards, minus the friend-zoning/little-sister-zoning from Fitz.) Keefe helps Sophie learn not to fret so much, threatening tickle-wars when she gets too serious, and calming her down when she's overwhelmed. He lets her rant at him, and always forgives her when she hurts him, just like she does for him. (Am I the only one whose heart hurt when this happened?: "If you can't give the specifics, everything you're doing is worthless." The words hit him harder than she'd expected. But she wasn't taking them back. "...I'm doing the best I can," He told her. ~Sophie and Keefe, Neverseen.) I just feel like Sokeefe's relationship is so much more meaningful, while Fitzphie feels like, let's face it, a cute crush.

      4) I like Keefoster better in part because of how Fitzphie and Keefoster react to each other, if you know what I mean. When Keefe is presented with the possibility of Fitzphie, he offers a half-hearted tease, or a sad smile, or a downcast gaze. Or even, in some cases, tells Sophie that he approves (Unless he's having a really awful time, like in Neverseen, when he became very snarkastic (snarky/sarcastic). And I gotta say, Keefe is so good at being snarkastic I can't even be mad at him for it, lol). In the beginning, when Fitz was around Keefe would tease or flirt with Sophie, but the more Keefe actually started falling in love with her, the more he slowly backed off and let Fitz have the field. Seems counterintuitive, I know, but I think that the more he loved Sophie, the more he just wanted her to be happy. And if Fitz was what made Sophie happy... he would let her go. Even if it crushed him. On the inside, he probably thinks that Sophie deserves better than he can give, and while I'm over here screaming at him to realize that's not true, I also love Sokeefe all the more for it.

      She knew he really meant 'I'm not worth it'.

      She hated that most of all.'

      "Someday, I'm going to make you see how wrong you are."

      "I'm just glad you're not shoving me away."

      "You really thought I would?"

      "Sometimes I think you'd be better off."

      " ... I'll only be better off when you come home and I know you're safe..."

      ~Sophie and Keefe, Lodestar.

      Another thing is, Keefe is an Empath, and he can feel every moment of Fitz's heart-fluttery effect on Sophie (another thing that makes me hurt for him). He can also feel every second of her roiling emotions when she's around him himself, and if him removing himself from the equation will make Sophie feel better, that's what he'll do- even though I think Sophie would be far worse off without him.

      "...I don't want you feeling sorry for me..."

      "I can't help it. But it's not pity. It's... I don't know what the word for it is. I'm too conflicted."

      "...You always are when it comes to me."

      ~Keefe and Sophie, Lodestar.

      Fitz, on the other hand, reacts differently. When Keefe makes an off-hand remark about knowing Sophie really well, Fitz will instantly rise to the challenge ("Pretty soon, she won't be hiding anything from me either." ~Fitz, Neverseen.) On occasion, in Neverseen in particular, Keefe would intentionally spark Fitz's ire out of his own frustration, and while that's not cool, I do feel like Fitz took the bait too easily. Furthermore, in Nightfall, when Sophie was giving Keefe a strangle-hug for the pictures he'd given her (ohmygosh that hug *squeals and hops up and down, fanning face*) when Fitz comes in, he 'stares at where Keefe's arms were wrapped around Sophie's waist' immediately making her let go and blush, even though she was perfectly content to koala-hug Keefe with Grady, Dex, etc. there, which ties into her feeling self-conscious around Fitz. Fitz also has a tendency to be jealous about every second he's not spending with Sophie (#bUtWe'ReCoGnAtEs), and while some people may think that it's cute and/or an affirmation of his affection for her, possessiveness is a hUgE mEGa uLTrA TURN OFF FOR ME WHEN READING RELATIONSHIPS UGGGHHH!!!! DUDE. You DON'T OWN HER. She can TAKE TWO STEPS WITHOUT HER COGNATE OMG. Okay, whew, sorry for that mini-rant. It's just that's Fitz's most glaringly unattractive personality trait for me tbh and I just can't stand it even though I love Fitzy otherwise. The 'But we're Cognates!' thing, while humorous, is very, very unappealing to me. Keefe, on the other hand, has been incredibly patient for someone whose always been second place, and the fact that he gives Sophie her space when she needs it (while also pestering her when she really needs to get something off her chest) is something I really love about him. I adore that little muffin.

      5) Okay, so everyone seems to think that Keefe is the only one in Keefoster that made any mistakes. But that's not really true. Sophie and Keefe both did things they shouldn't have- but usually for each other. For instance, when Sophie hid that note for Keefe from Lady Gisela, she did that to protect him. When she didn't tell Keefe that Lord Cassius wanted to join the Black Swan, she did it to protect him. When Sophie lashed out and hurt Keefe (emotionally) during their telepathic conversation while he was in the Neverseen, she did it because she was frustrated that she couldn't protect him'! Plus other reasons, but still. We noticing a trend here? The same goes for Keefe. When he joined the Neverseen, he did it to make up for Lady Gisela's awfulness (HATE HER with ALL MY HEART btw), and to help Sophie. When he took on King Dimitar, he did it to keep Sophie out of harm's way. And so on and so forth. They're both a couple well-meaning idiots, lol. But every time their relationship went through a rocky stretch, then came out closer than ever. Aside from the one little hiccup in Exile, Fitzphie has been riding on a wave of relative ease, with no meaningful development. By mid-Neverseen, Sophie and Keefe know each other incredibly well- to the point that Sophie could predict that he was going to try to sneak off to the ogre capital and wait to intercept him, and Keefe's 'you can't hide things from an Empath' line becomes more of a 'you can't hide things from me after everything we've been through' kind of a thing when you look at the subtext. Even though Sophie and Fitz had to share their secrets during their Cognate training, it just doesn't feel the same as the confidence she and Keefe have put in each other- by choice. No matter how much Keefe pestered her with his Empath-i-ness, Sophie could have chosen not to tell him anything. But she did anyway. To me, that says a lot about their relationship.

      6) Another reason people have said that Keefoster shouldn't be is because Sophie's not in love with Keefe. That would be a very good reason- except that I'm not sure it's completely true, and even if it is, Sophie is clearly on the road to thinking of him as more than a friend. I think she just doesn't realize it yet. She's had a crush on Fitz for a long time, and because of that, she never really considered anyone else a real option. But over the course of the books, Keefe has proven himself just as capable of switching Sophie's heart into hummingbird mode as Fitz, and we've had some serious romantic tension in the scenes between them- remember in Nightfall, I think it was, when Sophie was freaking out because she found out her emotions were overwhelming to Keefe, so she tried to stay on the opposite side of the room? That was hilarious, and also make the shipper in me screech its head off. Plus, Sophie has slowly grown more protective and affectionate towards Keefe, and seems to have developed a tendency to strangle-hug him, and get very Inflictor-rage-y whenever anyone so much as touches Keefe, or says something cruel to him (Gethen totally would've had it coming, if Forkle hadn't stopped her. Dimitar had it coming, too, and Keefe had to literally, forcibly stop her that time). And how many times now has she wanted to crawl through that Impater and throttle Lady Gisela? Or what about that time she declared she wanted to break into an ogre prison just to punch her in the face for hurting Keefe? Or when she glared bloody murder at Lord Cassius and reeeaaaally wished she had her Sucker Punch with her. (Oh wow, I just realized our dear Sophie has a violent streak. XD Good think Keefe has his magical-blue-breezes to keep her chill.) My point is, I think Sophie does love Keefe- maybe platonically for now, but that's changing. And I know Keefe has had feelings for her since near the beginning. If you need more evidence, does anyone remember Sophie's 'odd disappointment' when she found out Keefe 'only' flirts with her to get the message across to Biana that he doesn't like her like that? (As a side-note, sorry Biana.) I... think I've made my point, lol.

      7) I think that Sophie and Keefe need each other a whole lot more than Sophie and Fitz do. Yeah, I get it, the whole Cognate thing would be ruined (or at least awkward) if Fitzphie didn't happen, but honestly, I wouldn't be that heartbroken (again this is completely personal opinion, so if you disagree I totally get it). But on another note, Fitz has other people he can turn to. Alvar may have betrayed them, and that definitely hurt Fitz a lot, but he still has a pretty awesome little sister and two of the best parents to ever exist. Sophie never really went to Fitz with her problems much anyway, unless her Cognate training compelled her to, and Keefe... well... Keefe's mom is an evil psycho who sliced open his hand and probably had to do with murdering Jolie and betrayed him and his dad and pitted Keefe against an ogre king (which nearly killed him) and then said she did it all 'for him,' which dropped a bucketload of guilt on his shoulders. Keefe's dad is a cold, distant, emotionally abusive and controlling father who took Keefe's spirit and ripped it to shreds (as well as ruined all his drawings and blamed him for every bad thing that's like, ever happened). His best friend, Fitz, would be kind of hard to be around if Fitzphie did sail, which kind of cuts Alden, Della, and Biana out of the picture too. His hero (Alvar) betrayed everyone and went over to the dark side, trying to take Keefe with him, and Dex isn't really that close to him. Just another potential partner in crime. Honestly, Sophie is all he has anymore. And she's proven that she needs him on an emotional level, too. I'm not saying that Fitz wouldn't be crushed if Sophie rejected him, I'm just saying that in the long run I think he'd be... fine.

      'And those are my points. That, plus I think Sokeefe is stinkin' adorable. Their back-and-forths are so ridiculously cute, and I love his smirk. So much. Plus I love how he calls her Foster. It's unique and funny, and then when he does call her Sophie you know he's dead serious. Sophie and Keefe have just built up way more of their own rhetoric than Fitzphie. Also, what is the Great Gulon Incident?! It's driving me crazy! And how many times has Keefe had to remind Sophie to 'Breathe' now? I've lost count. But it's so ship-worthy I could literally die. And the fact that animals love Keefe is just so adorable. I can't- I can't even- UGH. Also Keefe is Batman. "I'm wearing this shirt forever, guys." Just. So. Stinkin. CUTE! Also- just a note, the fact that Sophie's heart goes all fluttery when she looks into Fitz's eyes isn't proof that her heart doesn't love Keefe. Heart-fluttering is a biological reaction to attraction, so it doesn't debunk the whole 'loves Fitz with her head and Keefe with her heart' theory, but I've decided not to take a stance on that. Either way, Keefe is a little cinnamon roll that I just wanna hide in my pocket so no one can hurt him anymore.

      Once again, I do like Fitz, and I respect Fitzphie shippers.

      ...But my life will still be complete when Keefe gets Fitz a hoodie that says across the front: "But We're COGNATES."

      Oh yes I did.

      To all those who have read this far! Have a custard burst for your dedication. And thanks!

      ~ Just another Keefoster shipper.

      (Note: I think it did weird things to the bold when I posted this)

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    • Personally, I'm stuck. I'm tired, so I'm not going to list reasons here right now, but I'm stuck between Sophie being with Biana, Fitz, or no one.

      -Chloe

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    • Wow, I missed a LOT since I've last been on here

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    • I'm still neutral, as in I really don't care WHO she gets together with, but I am a big fan of independent Sophie. However, from a writing perspective, I don't think Fitzphie will be endgame, and here's why:

      Shannon loves drama. And normally when a ship is confirmed early in a book series, it doesn't stick unless they have problems, and even then, simply because there's nothing interesting about a perfect relationship for however many books are left. Now, of course, book seven out of nine doesn't seem early, but considering the fact that each book is now around 800 pages and how easily Sophie changes her mind between Keefe and Fitz, it IS early. We still have two books to go through, especially with Legacy said to be a lot about matchmaking (unfortunately, in my opinion). 


      But I'm not surprised Sophitz happened in the first place. After all, because of Fitz's character flaws and the amount of people who shipped them, including Sophie herself, it was a really good way to satisfy everyone, maybe not at the same time, but at least for a few moments each. And if the whole mind vs heart thing is true, then being with Fitz gives her time to reflect and see whether this is what she really wants.

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    • Also, to the fandom user who wrote the really long stuff, first of all, love your dedication, that must have taken FOREVER, and second, you were really friendly and that was nice. I do want to debate point 7, in that I think at the moment, Fitz needs Sophie and vise versa more than Sophie and Keefe need each other. 


      With all the stuff going on with Alvar and his family, and how hard he's trying to protect himself and everyone else from getting hurt, Fitz is extremely vulnerable right now. He really needs the comfort Sophie can give him, not just as a friend, but as someone romantically. I can go into more detail about that if you want. And Sophie needs to be with Fitz at the moment so she can truly decide who she likes more. She can get Fitz out of her head, or she can stay with him, whichever she likes better. Sure, Keefe does need support, What with his mom being a jerkface and a general bad parent and everything else going on, but it's nothing Sophie hasn't helped with before, and she seems to be able to make him feel better without that extra romantic oomph. So, maybe not in the long run, but at the moment, I think Sophie and Fitz need each other more. But again, loved your argument, fandom user

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    • Hi.

      I'm really not a big shipper, but i have to say that I have a lot of respect for shippers on both sides of the major Sophie triangle (Sophie, Fitz or Keefe). The Fitzphie shippers tend to be very logical and practial about things. They think, Hey, she likes him and he likes her. Why SHOULDN'T they be together? On the other hand, the Sokeefe shippers are very maticulus in noticing and pointing out the little hints that Shannon drops along the way, pointing towards team Foster-Keefe.

      I really like the idea of an independant Sophie. Not becasue I'm femininst or anything, but becasue she has too many problems right now. But after then end of Flashback, it's obvious that Shannon is prioritizing Sophie's realtionships over everything else. So being an aspiring writer myself, I'm going to point out the one thing that leads me to think that Shannon has been planning Sokeefe all along. 

      It's a term that has many names, but I call it Pathos Ethos, and it's a character chemistry formula. You may have heard of it by the name "Opposites atract"  or something along those lines. It's the theory that two characters with different personalities, which balance each other out, and complete each other, are meant to be. 

      Some examples of this, from books that you may have heard of are Percy and Annabeth, Ron and Hermione, Lea and Han, ect. Each of these characters are two sides of the same shipping principal. One of them is logical, their power lies in their mind, they're the smart one. The other follows their heart, is more emotioanlly oriented. 

      But here's why this is so painfully obvious with Sophie and Keefe. Sophie is a telepath. Mind oriented. Keefe is litterally a feeling detector. If their abilities aren't obvious enough, then look at their personalities.  Sophie is terrible with feelings. We know that becasue of her total obliviousness to the crushes that some of the other characters have/had on her. She likes Fitz, which Shannon has been hinting for a while now is her head telling her hwat to think, proving that she's more mind oriented. She is the perfect specimin of one side of the Pathos Ethos coin. Keefe has lived his whole life in his emotions. His parents are mean to him, and we nkow that when he gets stressed, he gets reckless. Recklessnes is what happens when you obey your feelings, without any self controll, which comes from the mind. We know that Sophie is pretty mutch Keefe's self controll.

      As you can see, Shannon LITTERALLY created them for each other.

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    • I do want to debate point 7, in that I think at the moment, Fitz needs Sophie and vise versa more than Sophie and Keefe need each other.

      Heya! I really like the point you make, so here are my thoughts!

      I do agree that Sophie and Fitz need to be together, at least for a while, for story reasons- so Sophie can figure out what it is that she wants. However, I don't think that Fitz should need Sophie in order to get past Alvar. (Again, I haven't read Flashback, so keep that in mind, 'kay?)

      I mean, maybe he does. Maybe he needs a romantic relationship with Sophie in order to help him cope. But if that's so, then I disapprove, for several reasons. I don't think that one should rely too heavily on a romantic relationship. Relying on a friend (such as how Keefe relies on Sophie for the Lady Gisela mess) is okay with me, because deep friendships feel more permanent to me than romantic relationships. Romance is hard to navigate- and there are no guarantees. If Fitz is relying too much on Sophie's love, if she decided that she didn't want to be with him and stopped being a romantic interest, then Fitz could very well fall apart without that support. If what you said is the case is true, then I think that Fitz would need to take a step back and realize that he has other pillars of support to rely on. (Alden, Della, Biana, Keefe to an extent, as well as Sophie, but as a friend.)

      As for when I made my point about Keefe and Sophie needing each other, I didn't necessarily mean that they needed to have a romantic relationship. I'm perfectly happy with my Keefoster ship remaining a close friendship throughout the story, but my point is, if Fitzphie became permanent, Keefe and Sophie's friendship will probably be strained, since Keefe has undeniable feelings for her- not to mention his friendship with Fitz would be strained too, and his relationship with Biana would be awkward, and he'd probably avoid Everglen (which means avoiding Alden and Della too) in order to prevent inserting himself into a situation that will only hurt him. Whereas, if Fitz lost Sophie, he would have Biana, Alden, and Della (though possibly not Keefe, considering their relationship would be strained on Fitz's side if Sophie got together with Keefe). However, if Sophie went with Fitz permanently, Keefe would lose every healthy relationship he's got except for with Dex and the twins, and he seems to be the member of the main group who is least close to them. You said: "Sure, Keefe does need support, What with his mom being a jerkface and a general bad parent and everything else going on, but it's nothing Sophie hasn't helped with before..." And while I think that's true, if Sophie went with Fitz, it would be kind of hard for her to provide that scomfort (since Keefe would feel awkward around her and Fitz) and Keefe would lose his one and only pillar of support. In general, I think that if Fitz's relationship with Sophie was ruined, he would go through less devastation than Keefe would if Sophie's relationship with him was ruined. (Again, haven't read Flashback.)

      So anyway, that's my take on it. I'd love to hear your response!

      P.S. To the user above (Chicken tornado), I think that theory is brilliant- it's kind of what I've subconsciously thought all along about Shannon Messenger's intentions. Kudos, friend!

      ~ JAKS (Just Another Keefoster Shipper)

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    • 174.109.158.107 wrote:
      Honestly, everyone keeps going on about Fitz's anger issues. And yeah, he took it too far in Flashback. And it's hard to imagine his point of view sometimes, but i feel really bad for him.

      Remember that Alvar was someone Fitz cared about. A lot. He was the older brother, the one you could get annoyed at and it would be okay, because he loved you and you loved him back. Alvar was a part of his family, part of the world that Fitz had lived in all his life.

      Alvar's betrayal isn't as black and white as it seems. Alvar leaving is more than him betraying his family--it represents everything that Fitz knew, everything that had made his life so amazing falling to pieces. This rebel group is coming and destroying his home. They kidnapped and hurt the people he loved. And one of the people he loves is with them? It hurts--it hurts a lot. And while Keefe's mother had never been totally kind to him, Fitz's older brother was family, and he loved him. Alvar leaving meant the stares, the whispers, the shame building in his chest for something he didn't do. Fitz was never a part of this, and yet he's the one being punished inside for it. His parents, his sister, they're all being gazed at with disapproval like it was their fault. But it wasn't. It really wasn't. And before this, everything had been happening to someone else. It didn't fully register until he saw his brother disappear with the Neverseen, and it just comes crashing.

      And now he's back? And he's...normal again. This is what Fitz wanted. All he wants is his brother back, even if he doesn't realize it. Alvar hurt him. People talk about Keefe's walls? Fitz doesn't want to get hurt like that again, see his family get hurt like that again. And some distant and hidden part of him hopes Alvar is really back, some part of him that his mind can't get to, can't crush. So when Alvar turns out to be exactly what Fitz says...that small part of him, the one that had been holding on? It lets go.

      I think Fitz trying to hurt his brother isn't just anger. It's guilt as well. Guilt that he doesn't know what to do with, or how to handle it or why it's still there after all this time. He knows that none of this would've happened if he'd noticed what his brother was up to. And the source of all this guilt, all this shame is right in front of him....what else do you expect him to do? He's trying to make his mistakes right, fix the mistakes he thinks he made.

      Yes. He almost killed his brother. He did, and that's a fact. But Sophie brought him out of it, right? He needs Sophie. He does. Simple fact. At this moment, Fitz needs Sophie, because of what he's going through, and what she's been through. What if this entire series was from Fitz's point of view, and it was between Sophie and Linh instead of Fitz and Keefe? We wouldn't think of who would make Sophie the happiest--just Fitz, because that's who's life we're living. What happens if Fitz doesn't find anyone else? Sophie was the only one keeping him from doing something he would regret for the rest of his life.

      I'm not saying Keefoster is bad, or that Sophitz should happen. I'm neutral. And I'm sorry if I offended anybody. this is just my opinion.

      Backyard Windchimes

      I definately agree with Backyard Windchimed on this. Fitz has been through a lot. He's allowed to be angry, and his action and slight hostility to his friends is understandable. But I think that just for one second, we should pause to consider the way that other characters put in this situation would react. Let's start with Keefe. He WAS in this situation. His mother, the one parent who was just a little bit decent and sometimes nice to him turned out to be part of the Neverseen. Not just part of the neverseen. She was basically the leader. That was Keefe's mom, guys. I'l admit, it was probably less difficult for Keefe to deal with this betrayal that it was for Fitz, becasue Keefe's mom was never that nice to him in the first place. But she was the one fragment of hope that he had that baybe, just maybe, his parents cared about him. So what did he do? He joined the Neverseen out of the hope that he could maybe fix things and make it up to Sophie. Here's where the differance lies:  Keefe tried to do something about it. He didn't wait for the council to make the descision for him. He didn't throw a fit when things didn't go his way. He didn't get mad at people who had nothing to do with his situation. 

      Now let's look at Sophie. The same thing happened to her when Keefe joined the Neverseen. She didn't know that Keefe had done it for her, all she knew was that someone she cared about, loved like a brother, had gone down a path of darkness. We KNOW that that broke her heart. But lashing out at her friends was not how she dealt with it. 

      Maybe Fitz's anger is just one of the many ways to deal with greif, but if so, that makes him somone very unstable at this time in the series, and someone who shouldn't be involved in a relationship with ANYONE at the time. I think that the fact that Sophie and Fitz are currantly a thing is just part of Shannons big picture. Fitz is in a delicate situation, he could explode with the slightest nudge, or the tiniest little comment. Fitzphie is bound to end sooner or later, and if it does, it's going to be becasue Fitz made a mistake with judgement that was clouded by grief. 

      I'm not trying to argue with Backyard Windchimes, I'm just adding to her elequent and well put statement about Fitz's situation. 

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    • So the conclusion I've come to is that I ship Sophitz. Not because I like them together, but because I like Keefe more than I like them. He deserves to be with someone he doesn't feel he always has to protect. I honestly don't even care for Sophie and Fitz anymore, and even though I don't think they're very compatible, honestly to me Keefe's happiness is more important to me than theirs. Keefe is going to get himself killed because of his infatuation with Sophie- he already almost had already. In my eyes, that's not healthy.

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    • That's a really good point actually. I feel like Keefe maybe does sacrifice a bit too much for Sophie. He too sweet and amazing to have to do that his whole life. Honestly, idk who I ship with Sophie right now. I ship her with Linh Biana and Fitz, mostly, but I'm stuck between that, and flashback left me with a lot of questions and feelings, and I've had a whole year to theorize, and listen to everyone else's theories, and I'm stuck right now.

      -Chloe

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    • Applebaby12, I completely agree, Sophie isn't healthy for Keefe. She's too oblivious to other people's feelings, and Keefe's self esteem isn't strong enough for him to stand up to her and make her notice if she's doing something wrong. He would sacrifice anything for her, even if it's not worth it.

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    • Honestly, I think the best elf in my opinion for Keefe is Biana. Yes, I know that it's probably not going to happen, Keefe's not interested, whatever. But the reason I think they'd be good together is because Biana is one of the most emotionally balanced characters in the series. She won't let anyone push her around, and she doesn't need protection like Sophie always seems to. Biana is beautiful and girly, but she's no damsel in distress. With just one ability she's able to hold her own better than Sophie can, and she is shown to handle trauma well (evidenced by when she got those scars, she still was able to face Vespera with confidence.) Keefe would be able to focus on himself knowing that Biana isn't as much of a fragile little snowflake like Sophie.

      I ship her with pretty much every character (besides Fitz) because her mental and emotional strength would help balance out anyone. She's just all around a really strong character, and it's a shame she's robbed of screen time in favor of Sophie, Keefe and Fitz. I kind of wish I were reading about Biana rather than Sophie, honestly.

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    • I totally agree with Applebaby12. Biana is character with more complexity and layers than Sophie will ever have. (Not bashing, just stating the facts). She deserves someone special and complex just like her, and although Keefiana isn't going to happen, I think there are still good elves out there for her. 

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    • I do think that Biana is severely underrated. I don't ship her with anyone (expect maybe Dex and possibly Tam but I'm not sure yet because I haven't read Flashback), but that's partially because I haven't seen enough of her point of view to find out who would make her happy. Maybe no one. One of the great things about Biana is that she doesn't need someone else to make her feel good about herself. She's got a healthy amount of confidence and self-esteem, but she's also fun. I really really love how Shannon Messenger balanced both strength and femininity in Biana, proving that the two can coexist (something I've been trying to tell people for years).

      Also, has anyone really taken into account that Alvar's betrayal wasn't just devastating for Fitz? Biana is Alvar's sibling too, and she handled the situation amazingly. Biana is so awesome, but no one really takes the time to appreciate her, from what I've seen. Lucky for us, Biana doesn't need other people to appreciate her to realize that she has worth.

      I'm really hoping for a special Biana story, like the ones we had for Keefe and Fitz. (I want a Dex and a Tam story, too, so we'll see what happens.)

      ~JAKS (Just Another Keefoster Shipper)

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    • Applebaby12 Thank you for saying that, Biana is one of the best characters in the series, and I agree with JAKS, that I really want a Biana pov. We're already getting a Tam one in Legacy, so now that all the boys are done, (except Dex)l let's get Biana in here

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    • I ship Tiana because I think they balance each other out the most

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    • Sophie's biggest problem is that she hardly goes through any character development. Biana, however, went from being a kind of mean girly-girl who we're supposed to dislike to one of the most courageous, loyal and likable characters in the series. She's strong without giving up her love for clothing and makeup, showing that you can be girly and tough at the same time. Her biggest problem is that we don't get to see her often enough to really get to know her personality, but in my opinion that just makes her amount of character development even more impressive. Sophie is supposed to be the one who's going to save the Lost Cities and be the Moonlark or whatever, but honestly, if this weren't a kids' book my money would be on Biana.

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    • ^ Yes, I totally agree. Whatever character development Sophie had too seemed to vanish during Flashback.

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    • Applebaby12 Yes, most definitely. Sophie hasn't undergone any character development since book 1, yet every other character, even Tam and Linh who came in halfway through the series, have gotten at least some defining development. It's not good for the main character, because right now, Soohie's got five abilities and she still can't keep her friends from being and taken and the Neverseen from winning. She's determined, but she's easily distracted and her strengths aren't the ones you need if you want to be fighting a bunch of magical adult elves

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    • Backyard Windchimes wrote:
      Applebaby12 Yes, most definitely. Sophie hasn't undergone any character development since book 1, yet every other character, even Tam and Linh who came in halfway through the series, have gotten at least some defining development. It's not good for the main character, because right now, Soohie's got five abilities and she still can't keep her friends from being and taken and the Neverseen from winning. She's determined, but she's easily distracted and her strengths aren't the ones you need if you want to be fighting a bunch of magical adult elves

      I would argue that while Sophie hasn't gone through as mutch development as some of the other, deeper charcters, she HAS changed.  In book one, we remember her as slightly timid and very shy, but at the end, when she decides to live with Grady and Edaline, she shows that she has indeed found where she belongs, and in doing so, found part of herself, the part that never backs down in the face of danger. 

      After book one, Sophie didn't really change for about five books, but somewhere in Lodestar- Flashback, we've seen a big change, noticing diolaugue that the Sophie we know normally wouldn't say, and wearing clothes that don't match who she is on the inside, a pure girl who doesn't need to be dolled up to have value. I personally don't think that this latest change is for the best. I believe that because Sophie has been kind of simple and unwavering throughout the series, Shannon Messenger is taking her through a character arc to make her life more interesting for the readers. 

      I can honestly understand why Shannon has kept Sophie's character simple up until this point.  I mean her plot is so complicated already, and with so many other characters to deal with, focusing on a part of Sophie that had already been dealt with would be tedious and make the story too overwhelming.  I can guarantee you that Legacy will be filled with more character development for Sophie.

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    • Chicken tornado wrote:
      Backyard Windchimes wrote:
      Applebaby12 Yes, most definitely. Sophie hasn't undergone any character development since book 1, yet every other character, even Tam and Linh who came in halfway through the series, have gotten at least some defining development. It's not good for the main character, because right now, Soohie's got five abilities and she still can't keep her friends from being and taken and the Neverseen from winning. She's determined, but she's easily distracted and her strengths aren't the ones you need if you want to be fighting a bunch of magical adult elves
      I would argue that while Sophie hasn't gone through as mutch development as some of the other, deeper charcters, she HAS changed.  In book one, we remember her as slightly timid and very shy, but at the end, when she decides to live with Grady and Edaline, she shows that she has indeed found where she belongs, and in doing so, found part of herself, the part that never backs down in the face of danger. 

      After book one, Sophie didn't really change for about five books, but somewhere in Lodestar- Flashback, we've seen a big change, noticing diolaugue that the Sophie we know normally wouldn't say, and wearing clothes that don't match who she is on the inside, a pure girl who doesn't need to be dolled up to have value. I personally don't think that this latest change is for the best. I believe that because Sophie has been kind of simple and unwavering throughout the series, Shannon Messenger is taking her through a character arc to make her life more interesting for the readers. 

      I can honestly understand why Shannon has kept Sophie's character simple up until this point.  I mean her plot is so complicated already, and with so many other characters to deal with, focusing on a part of Sophie that had already been dealt with would be tedious and make the story too overwhelming.  I can guarantee you that Legacy will be filled with more character development for Sophie.

      I personally disagree that Sophie's character being simple is a good thing. I feel like the plot is only complicated because Shannon can't focus on one thing, but that's a discussion for another day...

      Character development is something that's supposed to happen gradually over time, especially in a series as long as KOTLC, not in the last few books. Besides, it's clear that Shannon intended to have Sophie start to develop more at the end of Everblaze/beginning of Neverseen; she stops tugging at her eyelashes, which I thought was supposed to symbolize her starting to kind of toughen up. But she never changed...

      Maybe I'm alone here, but I'm kind of sick of reading about a timid, kind of pathetic girl with no self esteem. At first it was okay because she was meant to grow, gain more courage, and become more self-confident. Not to an unrealistic point where her entire personality is just gone, of course, but there should've been some change. For Sophie to only have changed in the last 3 or so books is honestly ridiculous to me. Everyone complains about none of the other characters getting any development, but what can you expect when Shannon can't even develop the main character? It's like Keefe magically just changing in Flashback after being reckless and impulsive since Neverseen. You shouldn't just have random character changes out of nowhere. It should happen over time, and we should get to experience it as the characters do. But we don't, and that's a huge flaw with these books.

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    • I totally understand, I mean who likes reading about a boring main character? I personally hope that she grows up a little bit in the Legacy.

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    • Applebaby12 wrote:
      Chicken tornado wrote:
      Backyard Windchimes wrote:
      Applebaby12 Yes, most definitely. Sophie hasn't undergone any character development since book 1, yet every other character, even Tam and Linh who came in halfway through the series, have gotten at least some defining development. It's not good for the main character, because right now, Soohie's got five abilities and she still can't keep her friends from being and taken and the Neverseen from winning. She's determined, but she's easily distracted and her strengths aren't the ones you need if you want to be fighting a bunch of magical adult elves
      I would argue that while Sophie hasn't gone through as mutch development as some of the other, deeper charcters, she HAS changed.  In book one, we remember her as slightly timid and very shy, but at the end, when she decides to live with Grady and Edaline, she shows that she has indeed found where she belongs, and in doing so, found part of herself, the part that never backs down in the face of danger. 

      After book one, Sophie didn't really change for about five books, but somewhere in Lodestar- Flashback, we've seen a big change, noticing diolaugue that the Sophie we know normally wouldn't say, and wearing clothes that don't match who she is on the inside, a pure girl who doesn't need to be dolled up to have value. I personally don't think that this latest change is for the best. I believe that because Sophie has been kind of simple and unwavering throughout the series, Shannon Messenger is taking her through a character arc to make her life more interesting for the readers. 

      I can honestly understand why Shannon has kept Sophie's character simple up until this point.  I mean her plot is so complicated already, and with so many other characters to deal with, focusing on a part of Sophie that had already been dealt with would be tedious and make the story too overwhelming.  I can guarantee you that Legacy will be filled with more character development for Sophie.

      I personally disagree that Sophie's character being simple is a good thing. I feel like the plot is only complicated because Shannon can't focus on one thing, but that's a discussion for another day...

      Character development is something that's supposed to happen gradually over time, especially in a series as long as KOTLC, not in the last few books. Besides, it's clear that Shannon intended to have Sophie start to develop more at the end of Everblaze/beginning of Neverseen; she stops tugging at her eyelashes, which I thought was supposed to symbolize her starting to kind of toughen up. But she never changed...

      Maybe I'm alone here, but I'm kind of sick of reading about a timid, kind of pathetic girl with no self esteem. At first it was okay because she was meant to grow, gain more courage, and become more self-confident. Not to an unrealistic point where her entire personality is just gone, of course, but there should've been some change. For Sophie to only have changed in the last 3 or so books is honestly ridiculous to me. Everyone complains about none of the other characters getting any development, but what can you expect when Shannon can't even develop the main character? It's like Keefe magically just changing in Flashback after being reckless and impulsive since Neverseen. You shouldn't just have random character changes out of nowhere. It should happen over time, and we should get to experience it as the characters do. But we don't, and that's a huge flaw with these books.

      Lol, I have a whole rant about why I dislike Sophie...

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    • I'd love to hear it personally. You can put it on my message board thing if you want

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    • Applebaby12, you put that beautifully, I completely agree

      Apsen, so would I. Mind if I join?

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    • Applebaby12, I totally agree. Sophie was a relatable character at first, but she never changes, and it's just kind of . . . boring. idk.

      I feel like Shannon tried to keep her simple, but it kind just made her flat, and not super entertaining to read about. I don't want to read about a character that has low self esteem, is always stressed, and boy crazy. I feel like she needs to find a way to fix Sophie's character, before the end of the series.

      -Chloe

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    • Applebaby12 wrote:
      I'd love to hear it personally. You can put it on my message board thing if you want

      Will do!

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    • Backyard Windchimes wrote: Applebaby12, you put that beautifully, I completely agree

      Apsen, so would I. Mind if I join?

      Nope, don't mind

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    • how many messages is this. i was scrolling down for like 10 minutes.

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    • GlitterButtAndSoKeefe wrote:
      how many messages is this. i was scrolling down for like 10 minutes.

      A heck of a lor

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      • lot

      Anything you wanna add? 😂

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    • i dont know...maybe

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    • Well, of couse, I do love Keefe more than any other characters in Keeper (even though I love some of them so much, lol *hugs li'l Tammy*) but I feel like... that doesn't make me not ship him with anyone. Sure, Sophie isn't the best character in the history of characters, but she is, at the very least, decent. Okay, lemme put it this way:

      I have not ever seen a ship in a book/movie/TV show/manga/anything in which both the characters were of equal awesomeness. I mean, usually they're like, in completely different leagues! So I think we have to face it- in most, if not all, fictional relationships, there is going to be one character who is just better than the other one. So instead of focusing on that, I think what's really important is how well they balance each other out, and if they make each other happy.

      And I think Sophie and Keefe do that for each other. (Plus, I personally don't really take issue with Sophie. To be honest I like her- and while I haven't read Flashback yet I have heard complaints that she's boy-crazy in the midst of world-altering events, but come on, guys, she's just a teenager. If she spent all her time thinking of the awful things that could happen she'd get even more depressed. Also, people seem to think that the fact that nothing big happened in Flashback was somehow Sophie's fault...? If the book was bad, that's the author, not the characters. Note, I'm not hating on Messenger here- she's one of my favorite authors- I'm just saying that sometimes an author's work is slightly sub-par (I'm an author and that's definitely the case for me) and it's not the fault of the characters.)

      So, yeah, for me personally, Keefe being cooler than Sophie isn't reason for Keefoster to be a bad ship, lol. Of course, you're all entitled to your opinions, and I respect that. But if we all love Keefe so much, can't we all agree that we want him to be happy? Sophie is what makes him happiest. He makes her happy, too, even if she doesn't have realized romantic feelings for him yet (I think they're there, she's just oblivious so far). So yup, that's all I wanted to add.

      ~JAKS (Just Another Keefoster Shipper)

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    • Given that we're almost neck-deep into this Sophie ship stuff, and Biana's ships were perfectly described (in my opinion) by Backyard Windchimes, I'll talk about...

      Dex!

      I personally don't actually ship Dex with anyone. After Sophie's painful rejection, he was left to think about things. Since I ship Tiana, some would say it's obviously Dex and Marella! But I have to disagree.

      In Flashback we see Dex past his Sophie phase. He is happy as he is (despite feeling a bit left out) and he is comfortable and at ease whenever around Sophie. In Legacy, that's solidified even more and he can joke and help Sophie through the mess of shippiness she's going through. Dex's romantic arc, though more simple, has progressed further than Sophie's in my opinion. He had a crush, he got rejected, he healed, and now he's an awesome, romanceless genius. Not to mention, Sophie can talk to him easily, and because he kind of knows what she's going through, he can comfort her in a way none of her other friends could.

      If you look at the amount of time that is probably left in the KOTLC timeline, some authors would squeeze every ship they can into the last book or so (cough Rick RIordan cough), so I hope Shannon proves wiser. I don't think every character should be romantically involved or it'll make things to forced and complicated. In fact, I think it's better if most of them are not. They're fighting an impossible battle with the Neverseen, and we all know what happens to Sophie when she tries to balance finding out Black Swan secrets and thinking up plans a couple weeks before the Neverseen's attacks and boy issues (emphasis on that last one.)

      As for Marella, she's a snarky, independent girl. She is flirty with Tam (and I don't think snarky plus snarky equals perfection) but she also is with any other handsome guy. Marella and Dex both know what it feels like to be left out, and I do think that if they had time they might form a connection. I just can't picture Dex happy with Marella since it doesn't fit together for me.

      Sorry to any of you extreme Dexella shippers.

      -Lady Sassyfur

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    • ^I agree with you wholeheartedly. I just feel like Dex is an amazing character and he shouldn't be just shipped with a person who he's had only a few moments with

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    • ^exactly my point. Why force a character into an unnecessary relationship when you could step aside and let them be? Shannon's doing a lot of the ship stuff right now, so she has to let some characters roam free of those strings. And if they do have more moments and it doesn't feel rushed, then by all means, count me in!

      -Lady Sassyfur

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    • ^exactly. Relationships do not happen in a single page or chapter. They need time to develop amd nurture

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    • mhhhhmmmm

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    • What does anyone think about any of the not-Sophie-group ships, like Brant and Jolie or Oralie or Kenric. I realize that neither of my examples are possible, but you know what I mean.

      -Lady Sassyfur

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    • ha

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    • I actually took the time to read this

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    • A FANDOM user
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