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  • Approval link: https://lost-cities-keeper.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:1477737#6

    Please be respectful and don't ship bash. I'm personally Sokeefe, but I'll be open-minded to all reasons. I will participate in the debate as much as I can, but I might not always be active.

    The topic is obviously who Sophie will end up with. If you don't have anything to add then please don't spam this thread. Please write GOOD REASONS! I personally hate it when people just say "Sokeefe is trash, or Sofitz is dumb." Please write reasons, and like I said earlier DON'T SHIP BASH! 

    Lastly, this is a debate, so feel free to rant, write all the arguments you want, I know I've wanted to on the comments page but no one ever replied :((, on this page, hopefully, people will reply!

    Side note: You can make yourself a number (I'm #13). Please pick a number no one else has chosen and please don't do ridiculous #s like #100000. The numbers help identify who you're identifying against each other or else it will be a mess. :))

    Now I'm going to stop rambling (even though I told you that you can do it XD) and let's debate!

    Members (so far):

    The Queen of All Fangirls 

    Princess puryfinns #43-Sokeefe

    Project Sokeefe #13-Sokeefe

    GlitterButt&Greyfell #47-Sokeefe

    HurricanetheSeaWing234 #12-Sokeefe

    SophieFoster11 #11-Sofitz

    JaxTheShade #17-Sofitz

    KOTLC fan 4eva!!-#19-Sokeefe

    Books-are-the-BEST1 #10-Sofitz

    IceblueTriumphsoverall #20-Sokeefe

    Sophie+fitz4eva- #24-Sofitz

    ReaderOfManyBooks- #7-Sofitz

    LordHunkyhair&BangsBoy-#19-Sofitz

    ClareWarmingWoo-#77-Sokeefe

    FakeMintie- #4-Sokeefe

    Slinkizy- #22-Sokeefe

    HardcoreSkittles-#21-Sofitz

    SokeefeIsAWESOME1- #40-Sokeefe

    ShimmerBootyAndSparkleFanny-#66-both

    SophitzVackster-#8-Sofitz

    BlueLittleElephant-#5-Sokeefe

    IggyFloofMaster-#1-Sokeefe

    Ripplepuffs1155 -#15-both

    AnonymousWikiEditor-#45-Sokeefe

    Happy Shadow Thoughts Angry echoes-beware!-#41-Sokeefe

    Lady Kiddo-#16-both

    HermioneDizzneediAngelo-#4-Sofitz

    The Literary Llama-#14-neutral 

    Pisano222-#29-Sokeefe

    TheCharmingBookworm-#73-Sokeefe

    Soso-85% Sokeefe/15% Sofitz

    SnowFoxDragon-#12-both

    This is the second thread, btw. Also, if you want to join, just message me, or comment on this page. Thanks!

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    • I'm not trying to put any ships down, but I don't get why SO MANY people ship Sokeefe.

      I mean, after I read the series like 7 times, I got WHY Sokeefe is a ship, but I didn't get why more people shipped sokeefe than Sophitz.

      Like, Sophie AND Fitz like each other, PLUS they have dated, while Sophie doesn't even like Keefe 'that way'.

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    • To me, Keefe has been a jerk to Sophie for alot of the time, which is y i ship Sophitz

      This is completely random but go check this out: https://lost-cities-keeper.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SophitzVackster/NEW_SHORT_STORY

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    • To your first point, Sophie's just had a naive crush on Fitz which grew since she first saw him in the first book. And there's nothing wrong with that, I crush on movie stars too, but what was wrong was that because Sophie liked him just for his looks and boring "I'm practically a prince" personality. They also technically just admitted their feelings for each other, they didn't even date or kiss at that point. Lastly, Sophie does like Keefe 'that way.' In the heart and head matter which Lord Cassius published, it basically proved that Sophie liked Fitz with her head and Keefe with her heart, though she didn't notice because of her crush on Fitz.

      To your second post, Keefe has never been a jerk to Sophie like how Fitz has been to Sophie. Fitz loses his temper, which is fine, but he never makes up for it, just a pretty smile and that's all Sophie needs in his POV. Keefe has flirted, teased, and done countless other things like that, but he's never been angry at her, and he's never been mean to her either. 

      To counterattack, I want to say that Fitz wants to change Sophie. That's why whenever Sophie meets Fitz she feels self-consciuous and she feels uncomfortable. Fitz wants to turn her into a 'royal' elf, or noble one at least. That's fine, but Fitz wants to bring Sophie into the spotlight and change her whilst Keefe is fine with Sophie just the way she is. That's why, when she learned about the unmatchable thing, she went to Keefe because she knew she wouldn't be judged, or that she would have to hide anything.

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    • ^ eh Keefe has been a little stressful and mean to Sophie without a proper apology in Neverseen and Lodestar

      ^^ also why exactly do you think Keefe has been a jerk? Because I don't think he's been perfect but I wouldn't say he's a jerk

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    • JaxTheShade wrote:
      ^ eh Keefe has been a little stressful and mean to Sophie without a proper apology in Neverseen and Lodestar

      ^^ also why exactly do you think Keefe has been a jerk? Because I don't think he's been perfect but I wouldn't say he's a jerk

      I agree that he was a little mean in Neverseen and Lodestar, but he just learned that his entire life was a lie and that his mom never really loved him like he thought she did. I know that FItz was mad because of Alvar, but he still had a nice childhood, loving parents, and we don't even know why Alvar joined. Maybe Alvar had a lot of pressure too, like Fitz, and instead joined the Neverseen. Also, later on, Keefe did try to do everything he could to apologize since he at least realized his mistakes.

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    • True, but even if Keefe did realize his mistakes and do better, that's no different from what Fitz did, where he kept saying that he would make it up to Sophie, especially after the Exile mind breaking. I also think that Fitz's issues shouldn't be totally dismissed just because he had a better life previously.

      Both tragedies that occur to them are terrible in their own way. Keefe's life has kind of sucked from day one, and his mother, who he thought cared at least a little bit, turns out to be the leader of the ones trying to kill them. Fitz, on the other hand, has had a pretty good life so far, if you exclude the pressure of always trying to be a role model Vacker. But now, within a matter of months, his life is crashing down little by little, particularly in Legacy. Where his brother becomes a traitor, his reputation is demolished because of something he can't control, his project to stop' his brother is taken over, and Sophie is ignoring him.

      Both of them admit that they made mistakes and are trying to do better, and both of them admit that they definitely should have handled it better. That doesn't make either of them a villain, or even a bad person.

      Also I think Alvar joined because he felt he wasn't getting enough attention or respect, which is why I kind of hate his character because that's a stupid reason to become the enemy.

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    • yeah...

      just can someone explain to me why Fitz was soooooooooooooooooooo mad at Alvar?

      i mean Alvar was with the neverseen, but gethen did more bad stuff...

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    • Uh, we don't really know too much about Gethen and why he joined the Neverseen. But Fitz has a personal connection to Alvar, looked up to him, and recently found out that he *indirectly* murdered, tortured, and kidnapped people just because he thought he wasn't being recognized. Which I find kinda spoiled. He just wanted people to respect the "Vacker Legacy"

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    • JaxTheShade wrote:
      True, but even if Keefe did realize his mistakes and do better, that's no different from what Fitz did, where he kept saying that he would make it up to Sophie, especially after the Exile mind breaking. I also think that Fitz's issues shouldn't be totally dismissed just because he had a better life previously.

      Both tragedies that occur to them are terrible in their own way. Keefe's life has kind of sucked from day one, and his mother, who he thought cared at least a little bit, turns out to be the leader of the ones trying to kill them. Fitz, on the other hand, has had a pretty good life so far, if you exclude the pressure of always trying to be a role model Vacker. But now, within a matter of months, his life is crashing down little by little, particularly in Legacy. Where his brother becomes a traitor, his reputation is demolished because of something he can't control, his project to stop' his brother is taken over, and Sophie is ignoring him.

      Both of them admit that they made mistakes and are trying to do better, and both of them admit that they definitely should have handled it better. That doesn't make either of them a villain, or even a bad person.

      Also I think Alvar joined because he felt he wasn't getting enough attention or respect, which is why I kind of hate his character because that's a stupid reason to become the enemy.

      I agree with your first points, but put yourself in Sophie's shoes. She was afraid of being judged by Fitz so she panicked and did house arrest. And I never said either of them were villains or bad people, they both have things to fix, but if someone asked me who's right for Sophie, I would say Keefe. And we don't know Alvar's backstory so I'm not going to judge any of them right now. If his backstory is stupid, I will, but for now I won't. I feel like "villains" never get their story told and maybe they're willing to do the right thing but sacrifice people. If that's a villain, then many people would be qualified as villains in Sophie and her friend's POVs. 

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    • yeah yeah yeah, I understand your points. I guess just agree to disagree.

      Wait but didn't Alvar kind of explain why he joined them? He always thought that Fitz was more special than him so he joined the Neverseen out of jealousy

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    • JaxTheShade wrote:
      Uh, we don't really know too much about Gethen and why he joined the Neverseen. But Fitz has a personal connection to Alvar, looked up to him, and recently found out that he *indirectly* murdered, tortured, and kidnapped people just because he thought he wasn't being recognized. Which I find kinda spoiled. He just wanted people to respect the "Vacker Legacy"

      We don't know Alvar's backstory. If they listened, which Sophie never does cough *oralie* cough, then maybe there's something we don't know. What if Alvar was blackmailed to act that way and etc to protect his family? What if he was doing it to protect someone else he loves? What if he actually wants to change the world? All of those are questions Sophie and Fitz never asked. I know elves feel guilt and all, but Shannon wrote Sophie as feeling guilty when someone she loves gets hurt. Guilt can happen if you did something to someone you don't like but that was never once portrayed for some reason.

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    • ^^That's probably not the whole story, and what if he was you know what, just read my other reply, I'm tired of fighting for the "villains." 

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    • Okay, I guess we'll have to leave it up to the future books to fill in the gaps. I still predict, at least right now, that Alvar joined out of jealousy and to make a name for himself, since it kinda of portrays him that way on his fandom page.

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    • JaxTheShade wrote:
      Okay, I guess we'll have to leave it up to the future books to fill in the gaps. I still predict, at least right now, that Alvar joined out of jealousy and to make a name for himself, since it kinda of portrays him that way on his fandom page.

      Based on the few books we'ves seen him, though yeah, I hope the gap fills in the future books

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    • Tbh, I feel that I might be treating Fitz a little too harshly. I mean, in the books he isn’t THAT bad, but I have been reading WAY too many fanfics with “evil Fitz”. That being said, I still think that Keefe deserves Sophie way more than Fitz. Keefe has been a better friend in my opinion, and has made countless sacrifices on her account. Also, he needs at least ONE thing in his life to go his way. So, ya. SOKEEFE4EVER!!!!!!!!

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    • IceblueTriumphsoverall wrote:
      Tbh, I feel that I might be treating Fitz a little too harshly. I mean, in the books he isn’t THAT bad, but I have been reading WAY too many fanfics with “evil Fitz”. That being said, I still think that Keefe deserves Sophie way more than Fitz. Keefe has been a better friend in my opinion, and has made countless sacrifices on her account. Also, he needs at least ONE thing in his life to go his way. So, ya. SOKEEFE4EVER!!!!!!!!

      I agree. Fanfics are clouding my view by making Fitz seem angry all the time which makes us forget that Fitz wasn't angry all the time in the previous books. Though when you said "Keefe deserves Sophie," I think you meant they deserve each other. As much as I don't like Sophie, she's not an object which Keefe and Fitz can fight over, she's a person (elf) and she has her own feelings too. If Sophie does love Keefe with her heart, we'll see more proof in Unlocked, especially now that Sophie's gotten over her crush on Fitz.

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:

      IceblueTriumphsoverall wrote:
      Tbh, I feel that I might be treating Fitz a little too harshly. I mean, in the books he isn’t THAT bad, but I have been reading WAY too many fanfics with “evil Fitz”. That being said, I still think that Keefe deserves Sophie way more than Fitz. Keefe has been a better friend in my opinion, and has made countless sacrifices on her account. Also, he needs at least ONE thing in his life to go his way. So, ya. SOKEEFE4EVER!!!!!!!!

      I agree. Fanfics are clouding my view by making Fitz seem angry all the time which makes us forget that Fitz wasn't angry all the time in the previous books. Though when you said "Keefe deserves Sophie," I think you meant they deserve each other. As much as I don't like Sophie, she's not an object which Keefe and Fitz can fight over, she's a person (elf) and she has her own feelings too. If Sophie does love Keefe with her heart, we'll see more proof in Unlocked, especially now that Sophie's gotten over her crush on Fitz.

      Ya. That’s what I meant:)

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    • I think that Legacy definitely did antagonize Fitz a bit - I also think that miiiight have been Shannon's intention. But, we'll see whether that was true or not, I guess.

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    • Slinkizy wrote:
      I think that Legacy definitely did antagonize Fitz a bit - I also think that miiiight have been Shannon's intention. But, we'll see whether that was true or not, I guess.

      Yeah. I think Shannon wanted Sophie to realize how Fitz was better off as a friend so she had to do something to make him seem more flawed and make Keefe look like a hero

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    • yeah

      i mean, before flashback(when he nearly killed alvar out of anger), he was fine

      maybe a little too protective, but he was okay. but in legacy and flashback he got a little clingy etc.

      but i kind of wish that like, one person in the team would like join the neverseen for real, and like reveal that the neverseen isn't completely evil...

      sorry that's cheesy, but no one is completely evil...

      i hope...

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    • Keefe HAS been a jerk multiple times, eg.

      He played being sick on the way to Ravagog so he could steal the letter

      He read all of Lady Cadence's reports and didn't tell Sophie ANYTHING

      When he found out that Sophie and Fitz were tgt, even Sophie asked, 'I don't why you're being such a jerk, but...'

      ANYWAYS, they actually DID date, as they called each other boyfriend and girlfriend; Sophie went to the matchmakers; AND FITZ GAVE HER A TEAL HEART-SHAPED NECKLACE!!!!!!!

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      To your first point, Sophie's just had a naive crush on Fitz which grew since she first saw him in the first book. And there's nothing wrong with that, I crush on movie stars too, but what was wrong was that because Sophie liked him just for his looks and boring "I'm practically a prince" personality. They also technically just admitted their feelings for each other, they didn't even date or kiss at that point. Lastly, Sophie does like Keefe 'that way.' In the heart and head matter which Lord Cassius published, it basically proved that Sophie liked Fitz with her head and Keefe with her heart, though she didn't notice because of her crush on Fitz.

      To your second post, Keefe has never been a jerk to Sophie like how Fitz has been to Sophie. Fitz loses his temper, which is fine, but he never makes up for it, just a pretty smile and that's all Sophie needs in his POV. Keefe has flirted, teased, and done countless other things like that, but he's never been angry at her, and he's never been mean to her either. 

      To counterattack, I want to say that Fitz wants to change Sophie. That's why whenever Sophie meets Fitz she feels self-consciuous and she feels uncomfortable. Fitz wants to turn her into a 'royal' elf, or noble one at least. That's fine, but Fitz wants to bring Sophie into the spotlight and change her whilst Keefe is fine with Sophie just the way she is. That's why, when she learned about the unmatchable thing, she went to Keefe because she knew she wouldn't be judged, or that she would have to hide anything.

      Actually, Fitz DOES apologize.

      AND, Keefe HAS been very angry at her in Neverseen, when he found out Sophie had been hiding Lady Gisela's note from him, and literally screams at her without apologizing.

      But i do agree with your counterattack, in the sense that Fitz won't date her any more, if she doesn't find out who her biological parents are, as he doesn't want to be part of a scandal in his family, as there have been no Vacker bad matches. Meanwhile, Keefe doesn't care, as to him if being a bad match annoys his dad, then all the better.

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    • ^I did agree that Fitz apologizes, but with MINIMAL EFFORT.  Read the reasons above to see why I said that.

      Keefe was angry like ONCE and in Neverseen while Fitz has been angry countless times at Sophie, not just family related reasons, but matchmaking too. Keefe might have actually been sea(river) sick and he did it so Sophie could stay safe, that's why he researched, to prevent Sophie from being hurt, even if that meant him getting hurt.

      Keefe doesn't not care about matchmaking to annoy his dad. He actually DOES care about Sophie. He never judges her or makes her feel self conscious like Fitz. If Keefe would become a bad match to ake his dad angry, then don't you think he would've made a joke or said something like that. And I bet that Keefe was willing to get his matches, remember in Nightfall Sophie asked him about his matches and Keefe said that he just submitted the form/packet thing? When he found out Sophie was a bad match, he was willing to put all of that aside and become a bad match too.

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    • SophitzVackster wrote:
      Keefe HAS been a jerk multiple times, eg.

      He played being sick on the way to Ravagog so he could steal the letter

      He read all of Lady Cadence's reports and didn't tell Sophie ANYTHING

      When he found out that Sophie and Fitz were tgt, even Sophie asked, 'I don't why you're being such a jerk, but...'

      ANYWAYS, they actually DID date, as they called each other boyfriend and girlfriend; Sophie went to the matchmakers; AND FITZ GAVE HER A TEAL HEART-SHAPED NECKLACE!!!!!!!

      When he found out Sofitz was official, he was jealous. Fitz has narrowed his eyes or come between Sophie and Keefe too, and imagine how you would feel if someone you loved liked another guy because of her crush on him? He had a right to act out for two paragraphs. 

      They NEVER dated. Fitz gave her gifts, they admitted crushes on each other, and Sophie went to the matchmakers, that's it, story over. And the teal heart-shaped necklace. A gift which hardly made a dent in his money which was given at birth. I find teal shaped necklaces when I go to the mall! Keefe took HOURS painting a picture of all of them, and her family. Which is more personal, a gift that actually takes EFFORT, or a necklace which can be found in the human world?

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    • guys i am HARDCORE sokeefe

      like, i would eat a thousand ppl for the sake of sokeefe

      but like...

      can i be a sophitz/sokeefe person

      giving reasons for both sides??? that would be nice

      like defending both at the same time and giving reasons?


      i wanna do that

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    • ^Sure, I want to TRY to do that too, though I'll probably fail....

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    • lol

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      SophitzVackster wrote:
      Keefe HAS been a jerk multiple times, eg.

      He played being sick on the way to Ravagog so he could steal the letter

      He read all of Lady Cadence's reports and didn't tell Sophie ANYTHING

      When he found out that Sophie and Fitz were tgt, even Sophie asked, 'I don't why you're being such a jerk, but...'

      ANYWAYS, they actually DID date, as they called each other boyfriend and girlfriend; Sophie went to the matchmakers; AND FITZ GAVE HER A TEAL HEART-SHAPED NECKLACE!!!!!!!

      When he found out Sofitz was official, he was jealous. Fitz has narrowed his eyes or come between Sophie and Keefe too, and imagine how you would feel if someone you loved liked another guy because of her crush on him? He had a right to act out for two paragraphs. 

      They NEVER dated. Fitz gave her gifts, they admitted crushes on each other, and Sophie went to the matchmakers, that's it, story over. And the teal heart-shaped necklace. A gift which hardly made a dent in his money which was given at birth. I find teal shaped necklaces when I go to the mall! Keefe took HOURS painting a picture of all of them, and her family. Which is more personal, a gift that actually takes EFFORT, or a necklace which can be found in the human world?

      Technically they kinda did date, and yes, Keefe's gift took WAY longer. But it doesn't really matter too much because Fitz put thought in his gift. He may have bought it, and that may not be a HUGE deal, but it's the thought that counts. He definitely meant well.

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    • Yeah, guys, just because Fitz's gift took less time doesn't mean there was less thought. We know that Keefe is a great artist, so it makes sense for his gifts to be centered around his talent at painting. We don't know as much about Fitz, but we do know that Sophie has a charm bracelet and that she wears jewelry, like the Cognate rings and the teal necklace. (even the panic switch)

      And, if you want to compare how much TIME it took to make something, then don't forget that Fitz learned how to make Custard Bursts so he could bake them and give them to Sophie. Baking normal human desserts can already take well over an hour, and knowing the fancy elven desserts, it probably took most of the day to learn and perfect.

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    • True, it did take a long time to learn how to make the desserts, and not only did he learn to make Custard Bursts, he also learned to make many other kinds just for the sake of Sophie to feel better, which shows he really does care and he definitely means well and has put thought into what he gives her.

      Some Sokeefe fans say he could have easily bought them. But an important detail is that they're a little lopsided and presented in a special box. I don't know if they make custom order teal boxes like that just for the purpose of that, and if he bought it from, say, a bakery, it wouldn't have been lopsided. The bakery workers literally hade decades and centuries to perfect the making of those desserts, so it's true that he did make them.

      (Hey, I'm not bad at defending Sophitz! :D)

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    • ^^True, he did sometimes make desserts, but painting takes hours even if you're good at it. My art teacher takes at least three hours to make a really good landscape, imagine how long for people? Baking is another one of my hobbies, though it's easy to do. I've made custardbursts and mallowmelt from Shannon's site and it's pretty easy to do. 

      ^Fitz did do many things to make Sophie feel better, but did he actually let her tell him what was going on and how to help? I mean, Sophie tells Keefe everything without having the cognate or crush excuse. Keefe may not give as many presents as Fitz, but if you count how many times Keefe made paintings vs how many times Fitz made desserts, they're probably even. 

      But my question is, why does giving presents matter so much? I know presents show their love and care and all of that, but shouldn't other things matter, like who Sophie trusts more, who she feels comfortable around, and those kind of things? 

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    • I think what Sophitzers are trying to say about the Cognate thing is not that it's Fitz's excuse for everything, but that it means she really trusts him with her secrets and life. She just had a crush. Of course she didn't want to tell him that ONE THING. And she DID tell him eventually.

      In defense of my ship, it is true that Sophie only told him because she heard that he liked her. She might have never told and she might have broken their trust for one another if she knew she didn't have a chance.

      Sophie's personality is a little childish that way.

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    • I'm just more amazed that Keefe painted a picture of Sophie and Fitz for Fitz... without really any consolation, since money is legit worth nothing in the elvin world. Just to make Sophie and Fitz happy. Man, that would of been hard to do.

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    • I didn't know that, I haven't read Legacy... :( BUT that's a good point.

      (if you didn't know, I'm completely made of Sokeefe but to be fair I'm defending both sides)

      (also as a challenge! :D)

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    • Yeah I'm really proud of Keefe for painting that Sophitz memory for them, since it must have been pretty difficult to do. And, I guess to the chagrin of Sophitzers, I think it would have been a bit better if Fitz had done something more...personalized. Instead of having Keefe just make a painting. Especially since that was supposed to be a "trust me" moment, remembering where Fitzphie kind of took off.

      (also I love how we all started off the arguments with "true" for like three comments in a row)

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    • ShimmerBootyAndSparkleFanny wrote:
      I think what Sophitzers are trying to say about the Cognate thing is not that it's Fitz's excuse for everything, but that it means she really trusts him with her secrets and life. She just had a crush. Of course she didn't want to tell him that ONE THING. And she DID tell him eventually.

      In defense of my ship, it is true that Sophie only told him because she heard that he liked her. She might have never told and she might have broken their trust for one another if she knew she didn't have a chance.

      Sophie's personality is a little childish that way.

      But that's the thing. Sophie tells her friends practically everything, but she tells the more harder things to Keefe first, then Fitz, then her friends. Also, if you trust someone, you don't NEED to know all of their secrets and desires. I trust my parents but I definitely don't know all of their secrets. Fitz and Sophie only "trust" each other when they know each other's secrets, and that doesn't really make trust, it just keeps you on the same page. If Sophie truly trusted Fitz, then wouldn't she have told him about matchmaking earlier? But she didn't and I don't blame her, she felt uncomfortable around Fitz and she didn't know how he would react.

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    • "it just keeps you on the same page."

      funny you should say that actually because I believe that's what Fitz says to Sophie during the confrontation after meeting Oralie. He says, "I just want us to be on the same page again."

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    • JaxTheShade wrote:
      "it just keeps you on the same page."

      funny you should say that actually because I believe that's what Fitz says to Sophie during the confrontation after meeting Oralie. He says, "I just want us to be on the same page again."

      I didn't realize that, XD, though it does prove my point

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    • lol

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    • I don't really have a strong argument for this one, I'll admit, since I think Sophie definitely should have been up front with Fitz about her unmatchable status. It would have saved a lot of time and issues from coming up.

      But, it was also a fairly serious topic that would have involved him if they were in a relationship. So it kind of makes sense that Sophie may want to go to her other friends to get advice first. Although I really think she should have gone to Biana, because I'm a little tired of her going to Keefe and Fitz for everything. But anyway, she can still trust Fitz without having to go straight to him.

      By the way, while I'm on the topic of this, I think that all the other characters in the background while Sophie and Fitz were together are a lot more mature than Sophie was. Like, it would be one thing for Sophie to not be ready for a relationship because she's too immature right now, but I think the way it was portrayed in Legacy was just her being kind of ill-informed.

      Like, Della, Biana, Keefe, Marellla, Fitz, and the goblin bodyguards (at least) all thought that she was dating Fitz, and when I realized this, I found it a little easier to cut Fitz some slack. Because it wasn't just him pressuring or overanalyzing their relationship--everybody else also thought that Sophie was his girlfriend. And I was a tiny bit upset with her for not realizing this sooner, because it made Fitz look a lot worse in the relationship. Okay I'm done but I had to mention that

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    • oh dang I didn't realize those asterisks would come through like that but they look really cool

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    • okie idk how 2 respond

      i luv dis thread tho

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    • we need more threads like this

      debating is fun...

      ...as long as it doesn't become bashing, which is how 98% of all debates ended up about a year ago

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    • rly? that's sad 

      i didn't know bc i wasn't on till a few months ago

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    • JaxTheShade wrote:
      I don't really have a strong argument for this one, I'll admit, since I think Sophie definitely should have been up front with Fitz about her unmatchable status. It would have saved a lot of time and issues from coming up.

      But, it was also a fairly serious topic that would have involved him if they were in a relationship. So it kind of makes sense that Sophie may want to go to her other friends to get advice first. Although I really think she should have gone to Biana, because I'm a little tired of her going to Keefe and Fitz for everything. But anyway, she can still trust Fitz without having to go straight to him.

      By the way, while I'm on the topic of this, I think that all the other characters in the background while Sophie and Fitz were together are a lot more mature than Sophie was. Like, it would be one thing for Sophie to not be ready for a relationship because she's too immature right now, but I think the way it was portrayed in Legacy was just her being kind of ill-informed.

      Like, Della, Biana, Keefe, Marellla, Fitz, and the goblin bodyguards (at least) all thought that she was dating Fitz, and when I realized this, I found it a little easier to cut Fitz some slack. Because it wasn't just him pressuring or overanalyzing their relationship--everybody else also thought that Sophie was his girlfriend. And I was a tiny bit upset with her for not realizing this sooner, because it made Fitz look a lot worse in the relationship. Okay I'm done but I had to mention that

      I agree that I'm tired of her going to Keefe and Fitz for everything, though matchmaking is not the only reason why she doesn't trust him. In Legacy when Keefe and Sophie found Alvar, and later on Fitz found out, Sophie said, "If I could do all over, I would bring you too," or something like that, the point is, the sentence after mentioned that Sophie wasn't really sure if she would want him there or not. If Sophie doesn't trust Fitz around his own brother, even if he is a Neverseen member, then how can she trust him with her? 

      I think that Sofitz is a too mature concept and Sophie is still too immature. This is why I like Sokeefe, Keefe is still waiting for Sophie to be ready for a relationship, and Keefe is mature and immature at the same time. 

      I know that everyone assumed that Sophie and Fitz were dating, but when her friends found out she was unmatchamble, well, they reacted well, better than Fitz at least. Fitz might've felt pressured, but being unmatchable shouldn't be that bad. I know no one in his family is unmatchable, but Fitz left the Lost Cities with Sophie to find the Black Swan, or when he went to Exillium. I bet no one in the Vacker family has ever gone there before either. And Sophie did tell Fitz that it was for the greater good, and if Fitz didn't understand that Sophie is willing to do anything possible to help the world, she'll be willing to do it, then he doesn't know her at all. And being in a relationship means that you know each other's basic desires and fears. If Fitz doesn't understand that, then do they deserve to be in a relationship?

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    • yeah a while ago most debates just ended up with people bashing characters and then the threads and/or comments had to be ignored or deleted

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    • JaxTheShade wrote:
      yeah a while ago most debates just ended up with people bashing characters and then the threads and/or comments had to be ignored or deleted

      Yeah. Everytime I went on the Sofitz page and posted an argument against someone or just something I wrote, it got deleted for the most part. 

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      JaxTheShade wrote:
      yeah a while ago most debates just ended up with people bashing characters and then the threads and/or comments had to be ignored or deleted
      Yeah. Everytime I went on the Sofitz page and posted an argument against someone or just something I wrote, it got deleted for the most part. 

      Yeah, I think a lot of people back then just got really defensive about their ships and just gathered "respectful arguments" into the "ship bashing" section, so they got deleted

      as long as you provide your own reasons and aren't super rude about bashing, your debates are fine now. Honestly any people who come on and accuse you of ship bashing when you're not​​​​​​​ should just be ignored

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    • I repeat, TRUE.

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    • I honestly cannot stand Fitz but I don't want to make anyone feel bad. Fitz has been a jerk more times than Keefe, Keefe has been there for Sophie sooooo many times to comfort her and make her feel better. Fitz has too but he also has caused her so much stress and depression  Keefe has only done that in like one book unlike Fitz. Keefe got angry because she started dating a boy who has hurt her a lot and Keefe love's Sophie. Fitz try's to change who Sophie is and controls her, that should not be how a boyfriend should treat you, Keefe let's Sophie make her own decisions and loves her the way she is. Sophie feels safe with Keefe and that is why she turns to him first, Fitz makes her so self-conscious and worried. I also agree with a lot of what other people said. I am sorry if I made you feel bad about your opinion.



      - Sokeefeforever 

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    • May I join?

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    • 104.139.114.69 wrote:
      I honestly cannot stand Fitz but I don't want to make anyone feel bad. Fitz has been a jerk more times than Keefe, Keefe has been there for Sophie sooooo many times to comfort her and make her feel better. Fitz has too but he also has caused her so much stress and depression  Keefe has only done that in like one book unlike Fitz. Keefe got angry because she started dating a boy who has hurt her a lot and Keefe love's Sophie. Fitz try's to change who Sophie is and controls her, that should not be how a boyfriend should treat you, Keefe let's Sophie make her own decisions and loves her the way she is. Sophie feels safe with Keefe and that is why she turns to him first, Fitz makes her so self-conscious and worried. I also agree with a lot of what other people said. I am sorry if I made you feel bad about your opinion.


      - Sokeefeforever 

      I agree with all of your points!

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    • SokeefeIsAWESOME1 wrote:
      May I join?

      Of course, I'm assuming you're Sokeefe from your username, right? Also, what # do you want to be? Be sure to choose a number which isn't used. We don't really use them btw but it's just fun to make it sound official and everything

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      SokeefeIsAWESOME1 wrote:
      May I join?
      Of course, I'm assuming you're Sokeefe from your username, right?

      Yay! Yes, I am Sokeefe! Lol 😂 

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    • mark me as both:#13

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    • dang it its taken

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    • okieeeeeeeeeee... 66!

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    • I will be 40 if that is okay!

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    • SokeefeIsAWESOME1 wrote:
      I will be 40 if that is okay!

      Sure!

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      SokeefeIsAWESOME1 wrote:
      I will be 40 if that is okay!
      Sure!

      Yay, thank you!

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    • Sooooo this is pretty random but ANYWAYS I want to thank all the pple that replied and shared their views with me:)

      I learned A LOT from all of you haha

      If you want, follow me on Instagram @shaniagoh_

      LOVE U ALL!!!!!

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    • ShimmerBootyAndSparkleFanny wrote:
      okieeeeeeeeeee... 66!

      me 66 plz

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    • and put me as BOTH

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    • SophitzVackster wrote:
      Sooooo this is pretty random but ANYWAYS I want to thank all the pple that replied and shared their views with me:)

      I learned A LOT from all of you haha

      If you want, follow me on Instagram @shaniagoh_

      LOVE U ALL!!!!!

      Glad to see you've enjoyed this thread! Also, I saw your Instagram account and I think you're the one who's profile says dancer? Idk if that was you so just asking

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    • Um...can anyone post here? Because here's my Sokeefe argument.

      My Argument: Why I Personally Prefer Sokeefe Over Fitzphie:

      So yeah, this is my view. (warning: some of this is based off of things I’ve seen in real life, so it might be different for you)


      Part One: Ok, Sophie MAINLY Likes Fitz For His Looks

      We all know this is true. Even a few Fitzphie fans have admitted that this IS kinda accurate to some degree to me. But my peeps in the Fitzphie fanclub- Tell me, when was the last time you remember Sophie describing Fitz as kind, caring, loving, and other things that your boyfriend should be? Yeah...she doesn’t do that too often. I mean, she doesn’t NEVER do it, but she certainly doesn’t do it a lot. She definitely doesn’t compliment him for something other than his appearance as much as your average girlfriend would. And, yes, I know a lot of relationships START with someone noticing another person’s looks, but...I feel like Sophie just goes ON and ON about it. I mean, sure, my crush is super good looking in real life, but what made me really like him is looking past appearance and going based off of personality. I had to make sure he was nice to me, that we had at least some stuff in common (we’d have more if he decided that the violas weren’t the worst instrument in the history of instruments which was totally off topic but whatever), and a lot of other traits. I feel like Sophie just consentraits too much on how handsome Fitz is and neglects to realize how little they have in common or that Fitz might not be the healthiest romantic partner for her. With Keefe, it’s different. Sure, she DOEs comment on his looks sometimes, but I feel like she doesn’t overly do it like she does to Fitz. It’s ay OK to comment on your crush’s/boyfriend’s/girlfriend’s looks, but when you excessively do that, it’s not really actual love anymore. I had a sorta friend who dated a girl simply because she was extremely pretty (her temper was REALLy bad) and let’s just say that did NoT work out very well for him, and they broke up within about two weeks after he realized that she wasn’t a very good girlfriend. ((SPOILERS FOR LEGACY DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN’T READ THE BOOK UNLESS YOU ARE ME AND REALLY LOVE TO SPOIL THINGS FOR YOURSELF!!!!!!)) Case in point with Fitz and Sophie. They broke up in Legacy after kinda-dating for not that long. Though there were multiple factors leading to the breakup, I think a big one was Sophie realizing that she and Fitz didn’t really know each other well enough to date. Keefe and Sophie, though, know so much about each other that they don’t keep a lot of secrets from the other one because Sophie sees beyond Keefe’s looks, something that she failed to do for Fitz, which makes Sokeefe a better couple.'

      dang I really love to debate

      If you like this, than I will post Part Two!

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    • ^I love ALL of your points. Something to add, Sophie always overlooked Fitz's flaws because she was blinded by her naive crush based on his looks. In Legacy she realized he would be a better friend than boyfriend for her since she realized his flaws. 

      1. Fitz expected Sophie to give up the greater good for him and if he knew Sophie, than he should know that she would NEVER do something like that. Also, Keefe was willing to break Sophie's crush despite how much it broke him but he did it for the greater good. This is why Sokeefe would be more...understanding.

      2. Sophie never noticed Fitz's personality, like in depth. Sure she noticed he was caring and loyal, but did it really get deeper than that? Did Sophie immerse herself into his shoes and support him as he would to her? NO. Neither of them did, which is why I was surprised it took this long for Sophie to realize that in her POV, she saw nothing in Fitz besides 'good looks' and a 'I'm practically a prince' personality. Not trying to character bash, there is more to Fitz than that like if you look at Keefe on the surface it would also be something basic like this, but Sophie looked deeper, looked in to see the boy beneath the mask. She didn't even TRY to do this with Fitz which is why she never realized how incompatible they were.

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    • Yeah. Also, here is the whole argument:

      Part Two- Not To Be Mean to Fitz, But...Am I the Only One Who Realized He Sorta Has Anger Issues?

      Yeah, yeah, this is NOT a bash Fitz essay (or argument or whatever you want to call it), it’s a ship debate, and I know y’all are probably like, get to the point, AWE, Fitz’s anger issues can wait. But the anger issues ARE my point. So, I’m sure we all remember that scene (read: multiple scenes) in Exile where ((SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)) Fitz takes his anger out on Sophie for Alden’s mind breaking, though it definitely wasn’t her fault, and makes her feel ten times guiltier than she already felt (which is dangerous for Sophie; it could have led to her sanity shattering as well). Don’t get me wrong, I’ve gotten angry at many people for literally NO reason before, and I’m sure we all have. We’re human, after all. But Fitz seems to do it a LoT more than most people, which can be classified as anger issues. These anger outbursts that Fitz get, well, they make Sophie NoT want to tell him things out of a fear that he’ll get furious at her and hate her. That, children, is what we call an unhealthy relationship. If you are constantly afraid that your boyfriend/girlfriend will get mad at you for things you can’t control, they shouldn't be given that title. And now we get to the Sokeefe part of the debate. When Sophie decides that she is going to discontinue her search for her biological parents, who is the first person she tells? Keefe. In fact, she says that she knew Keefe wouldn’t judge her for her decisions. This isn’t the only time that Sophie tells Keefe secrets that she wouldn’t tell anyone else (at least at the time) and vice versa. And it also isn’t the first time that Sophie said that Keefe wouldn’t hate her or judge her for the secrets.That is the type of relationship you want with your boyfriend. Not the one that Sophie and Fitz had, where, the few times she told him secrets (most of which times she was sorta forced to for one reason or another), she was scared to death the whole time because she was sure Fitz was going to react with anger and push her away. Which brings us to…

      Part Three-Sophie DOeSN’T Truly Trust Fitz Like She Trust a Certain Someone

      Ok, Fitzphie fanclub, bring on the “but they’re cognates” argument. *pauses own debate and listens*. Yes, they are cognates. We know. But...they’re so-called “trust” is solely a result of being cognates. So...what if they weren’t? Would Sophie simply tell Fitz secrets because of their friendship like she does for Keefe? The answer? Probably not. Fitz and Sophie know a lot about each other just because of the cognate thing. And as we learned in Flashback, Fitz didn’t develop romantic feelings for Sophie until the middle of Neverseen. They started training as cognates in the beginning of Neverseen, before Fitz decided he liked her back. But my point is, if they didn’t have to share secrets with each other because of cognate training, I don’t think they would have enough trust to willingly admit secrets to each other. Keefe isn’t Sophie’s cognate. But yet she tells him things that she won’t tell other people, even her other best friends and family, because they trust each other so much! And Keefe does the same thing. Who was the first (and only) person that Keefe revealed his inner self to? Sophie. And if Fitz was the one to run off to the Neverseen, and you subtracted Fitz’s good looks from the matter, would Sophie have been able to trust him like she trusted Keefe when he ran off? No. Sophie and Keefe have the kind of trust that is so deep that it’s impossible to break. And it’s what you want in a relationship.

      Part Four-Lord Cassius’s Head vs. Heart Theory and How I Think it Will Play a Role In The Infamous Love Triangle

      I know this theory is very popular. And I also know that it’s very unpredictable if it will play a role in figuring out Sophie’s love triangle. But it makes so much sense to me. We all know that Sophie has gotten “fluttery” feelings around Keefe (especially when he’s really close to her), which are the type of feelings that she gets around Fitz. And that’s not all-remember in Legacy, when ((YEAH ANOTHER SPOILER!!!!!!)) Fitz was about to kiss Sophie when Keefe was in the room, and after Ro interrupted them and Sophie saw Keefe, she said that “The thought of kissing Fitz in front of Keefe was more than just awkward. It felt...wrong, somehow.” (Legacy, pg. 246). I think that is Sophie’s heart speaking, telling her that she likes Keefe, though her head can’t figure it out. And those fluttery feelings she gets around Keefe? Those are also her heart hinting to her head that she loves Keefe. Also, is it just a coincidence that Keefe’s father happened to come up with the theory...'

      Part Five (also the final part)- A Random Fact That I Saw That Would Make Sokeefe Happen if the Head vs. Heart Theory is Correct

      So, I have a really weird habit of going on TikTok and looking up fact videos (yeah it’s really weird, isn’t it?) and I saw this fact that was like “if you like two people romantically, choose the second one, because if you really loved the first one, you wouldn’t have loved the second one like that.” or something along those lines. But if Sophie decides that she likes Keefe as well as Fitz, technically she liked Fitz first and if she really liked him, she wouldn’t have feelings for Keefe as well.

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    • ...wow

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    • the saying also goes, "go with the first because even with the second one, you never stopped loving the first"

      sorry just had to point that out

      I can make up a counter argument if you want

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    • Sure! I'd love a counter argument

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    • I agree with all of your points *sends virtual hug!* Adding to the Sophie and Fitz don't really trust each other. They are cognates, not that cognates need to be in a ROMANTIC relationship, they can just be friends, but Fitz always pesters Sophie about her secret (crush) and Sophie definitely didn't tell Keefe but they trusted each other a lot more even though they don't know each others secrets.

      Also, with the last point, it's not always true, though I hope it's true for KOTLC

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    • @Project Sokeefe- Me too

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    • I can write up a counter debate to AnonymousWikiEditor's post

      I also have a few more random Sophitz/misc. debates on my message wall

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    • Although I'm a Sophiz shipper, im going to be neutral for 1 sec. Just a thought, but I feel like you guys (and girls) are focusing too much on Fitz and Keefe. Like you kind of aren't considering what Sophie wants. Just a thought though.

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    • Okay--counter argument time: here you go peoples

      Part One: Ok, Sophie MAINLY Likes Fitz For His Looks

      So, I disagree. ( Obviously. ) Yes, Fitz is described as very handsome. And Sophie often comments on his looks. But she does so with every other character--like Biana, when she dresses up, or Keefe when he did his hair differently. She just finds Fitz more attractive than other elves.

      And there isn't anything wrong with that. It's fine to like somebody's looks, and we do know that isn't the only reason Sophie likes him because that's not all she mentions about him.

      She does mention whenever he's overly sweet or caring, like when he gave her his cape, or when he held her hand if she's anxious, or when he gives her gifts to cheer her up. ( which, by the way, is not bribing her to like him, as I've seen a few people say. Giving gifts is not saying, "here's money, date me." )

      Sophie's heart flutters whenever he is sweet and kind, just like it does whenever she meets his eyes. So it's not an imbalance. It's not just her liking him because his eyes are pretty. That's just one part. And there's nothing wrong with Sophie stating it whenever she meets his eyes, or whenever Fitz is dressed up or looks particularly nice.

      I'm honestly not really sure how else to word it, so I'll move on.

      Part Two- Not To Be Mean to Fitz, But...Am I the Only One Who Realized He Sorta Has Anger Issues?

      Okay, this is one of the biggest arguments I've seen about Fitz. And people often seem to incorrectly label anger issues.

      Anger issues is the state of constantly being angry, and overreacting at every little thing. It's where you can't control yourself all the time, and everything is a problem. Everything is something that makes you angry. And you often can't change because you get furious at anything that makes you want to change.

      It's a pretty serious diagnosis, and definitely not on par with what Fitz struggles with. And the term "anger issues" shouldn't be something that's thrown around whenever Fitz gets upset.

      Minor inconveniences don't make him explode, like someone with serious anger issues would do. Fitz only gets angry when something massive happens. He's gotten angry noticeably in three of the books, but really only twice.

      Once, when his father's mind broke, and he could have lost him forever. And Fitz, unlike what a lot of people think, apologized before Sophie healed Alden, and told her that he would still forgive her even if she couldn't heal him. He wasn't just sucking up to Sophie so she would heal Alden. He was genuinely sorry.

      The second is in Flashback and Legacy, where Alvar is a) allowed to live at Everglen, b) treated like a poor citizen who should be pampered, c) escapes right back to the Neverseen, and d) gets to not be arrested for everything he's done.

      I should also mention that the reason Fitz was angry in Flashback in Legacy is because his traitor brother is allowed to live with him, instead of in some separate housing, while also being treated with diligence. This was also under a time limit of only 6 months, and even thought Fallon Vacker said, "a lot can happen in 6 months"...

      a lot can not happen in six months. Amnesiacs shouldn't be placed right back into normal society simply because they don't remember doing something. It doesn't matter if you were betrayed by an organization, what matters is that before you were, you willingly acted with them.

      And, mind you, Alvar can indirectly be considered a murderer. Remember the plague? The one that killed so many gnomes that also was created by the same organization he was apart of? Not to mention attempted murder, just straight up battery, and abduction and torture of young kids. 

      And then, Alvar escapes, despite everything Fitz was doing to prevent it, and Alvar ends up in the troll pod. Realizing there was nothing he could do, he abandons him ( a far cry from people saying that Fitz killed him intentionally ) and finds out he was alive in Legacy. But, is Alvar taken back to be arrested and sufficiently punished for his crimes?

      No. Instead, Sophie and Keefe swoop in and let him go for information that they could have easily gotten whilst also capturing him. This sets Fitz's project back to square one, and he's understandably angry about this.

      But, is any of this a small matter? Is the broken mind of your father or the release and near death of your brother a minor issue that Fitz shouldn't be upset about? No. He has every right to be angry about these things. This is not anger issues.

      What Fitz struggles with is his habit of being stubborn and pushing people away when he gets angry. This is a problem, and definitely something that strains his relationships when something terrible and stressful happens to him--but he can be helped. It's far more common for people to do this, and Fitz can't be called a "jerk" or "bad" because of this. The people he cares about can help him get past this.

      Part Three-Sophie DOeSN’T Truly Trust Fitz Like She Trust a Certain Someone

      Honestly, this point isn't entirely at fault. I still think that trust does exist between them, though I can't say it doesn't need work. But, you can't say that Sophie probably wouldn't tell Fitz all those things if they weren't cognates or that she wouldn't trust him if he ran to the Neverseen because...it's not reality.

      We don't know what would have happened because it didn't, and there's a reason it didn't. So, personally, I don't think you can base some of those arguments on what might have happened.

      This doesn't mean I think Sophie and Fitz have flawless trust. They definitely need to work on that, and once they do, it would be great. I don't want to rehash everything in my main previous argument on this thread, but if you read it, you'd understand my stance on the trust regarded in both relationships.

      Part Four-Lord Cassius’s Head vs. Heart Theory and How I Think it Will Play a Role In The Infamous Love Triangle

      Frankly, it's difficult to debate with the Heart vs Head theory because it is just a theory. And until it's been confirmed, I don't really know which side to be on with it.

      On one hand, it may not even be valid. It could just be another added factoid that makes it easier to explain whenever emotions are brought up. For example, when Livvy is talking about the coloured pills in Legacy, and she talks about how different emotional centers bring different types of emotions. The Heart vs Head may only exist to further solidify her talking, instead of it coming out of nowhere in the series. After all, not everything in a story needs to be Chekhov's Gun.

      However, it has been mentioned enough times to make it seem as though that isn't the case, so maybe it really is a subtle nod to Sokeefe happening. Many Sokeefers have latched onto this idea. Although, the existence of this theory doesn't necessarily mean that Keefe is the one she loves with her heart--it could always be Fitz. ( just had to bring that up, since it's never explicitly stated that Keefe is the pure emotion heart side of the theory )

      But, on the third hand, since I'm assuming we're dealing with a mutant here, everything that's happened in the past books could be completely written off by the whole, coloured pill thing in Legacy. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it, but the direct quote is,

      “The good news,” Mr. Forkle told her, “is you made the right decision with the pill you selected. I can already feel your heart and mind communicating in ways they never have before.”

      So I assume that means we don't have to worry about separating Heart emotions from Head emotions, and that they're now one in the same. Meaning that any emotions Sophie feels from there on is just straight emotion. Which makes it a lot easier to distinguish.

      Part Five (also the final part)- A Random Fact That I Saw That Would Make Sokeefe Happen if the Head vs. Heart Theory is Correct

      Um...not really an argument but I admire your creativity. 

      • clap*
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    • ^you do make SOME good points...

      I just gotta say, when you said the thing about Sophie not having to worry about the communication from her head and her heart because of the reset, that happened only slightly before Sophie decided that she and Fitz were better off as friends. So if it is true and she can understand her heart emotions better, well...

      just saying:)

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    • IceblueTriumphsoverall wrote: ^you do make SOME good points...

      I just gotta say, when you said the thing about Sophie not having to worry about the communication from her head and her heart because of the reset, that happened only slightly before Sophie decided that she and Fitz were better off as friends. So if it is true and she can understand her heart emotions better, well...

      just saying:)

      Yeah...just realized that. I should add that into my argument

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    • JaxTheShade wrote: Okay--counter argument time: here you go peoples

      Part One: Ok, Sophie MAINLY Likes Fitz For His Looks

      So, I disagree. ( Obviously. ) Yes, Fitz is described as very handsome. And Sophie often comments on his looks. But she does so with every other character--like Biana, when she dresses up, or Keefe when he did his hair differently. She just finds Fitz more attractive than other elves.

      And there isn't anything wrong with that. It's fine to like somebody's looks, and we do know that isn't the only reason Sophie likes him because that's not all she mentions about him.

      She does mention whenever he's overly sweet or caring, like when he gave her his cape, or when he held her hand if she's anxious, or when he gives her gifts to cheer her up. ( which, by the way, is not bribing her to like him, as I've seen a few people say. Giving gifts is not saying, "here's money, date me." )

      Sophie's heart flutters whenever he is sweet and kind, just like it does whenever she meets his eyes. So it's not an imbalance. It's not just her liking him because his eyes are pretty. That's just one part. And there's nothing wrong with Sophie stating it whenever she meets his eyes, or whenever Fitz is dressed up or looks particularly nice.

      I'm honestly not really sure how else to word it, so I'll move on.

      Part Two- Not To Be Mean to Fitz, But...Am I the Only One Who Realized He Sorta Has Anger Issues?

      Okay, this is one of the biggest arguments I've seen about Fitz. And people often seem to incorrectly label anger issues.

      Anger issues is the state of constantly being angry, and overreacting at every little thing. It's where you can't control yourself all the time, and everything is a problem. Everything is something that makes you angry. And you often can't change because you get furious at anything that makes you want to change.

      It's a pretty serious diagnosis, and definitely not on par with what Fitz struggles with. And the term "anger issues" shouldn't be something that's thrown around whenever Fitz gets upset.

      Minor inconveniences don't make him explode, like someone with serious anger issues would do. Fitz only gets angry when something massive happens. He's gotten angry noticeably in three of the books, but really only twice.

      Once, when his father's mind broke, and he could have lost him forever. And Fitz, unlike what a lot of people think, apologized before Sophie healed Alden, and told her that he would still forgive her even if she couldn't heal him. He wasn't just sucking up to Sophie so she would heal Alden. He was genuinely sorry.

      The second is in Flashback and Legacy, where Alvar is a) allowed to live at Everglen, b) treated like a poor citizen who should be pampered, c) escapes right back to the Neverseen, and d) gets to not be arrested for everything he's done.

      I should also mention that the reason Fitz was angry in Flashback in Legacy is because his traitor brother is allowed to live with him, instead of in some separate housing, while also being treated with diligence. This was also under a time limit of only 6 months, and even thought Fallon Vacker said, "a lot can happen in 6 months"...

      a lot can not happen in six months. Amnesiacs shouldn't be placed right back into normal society simply because they don't remember doing something. It doesn't matter if you were betrayed by an organization, what matters is that before you were, you willingly acted with them.

      And, mind you, Alvar can indirectly be considered a murderer. Remember the plague? The one that killed so many gnomes that also was created by the same organization he was apart of? Not to mention attempted murder, just straight up battery, and abduction and torture of young kids. 

      And then, Alvar escapes, despite everything Fitz was doing to prevent it, and Alvar ends up in the troll pod. Realizing there was nothing he could do, he abandons him ( a far cry from people saying that Fitz killed him intentionally ) and finds out he was alive in Legacy. But, is Alvar taken back to be arrested and sufficiently punished for his crimes?

      No. Instead, Sophie and Keefe swoop in and let him go for information that they could have easily gotten whilst also capturing him. This sets Fitz's project back to square one, and he's understandably angry about this.

      But, is any of this a small matter? Is the broken mind of your father or the release and near death of your brother a minor issue that Fitz shouldn't be upset about? No. He has every right to be angry about these things. This is not anger issues.

      What Fitz struggles with is his habit of being stubborn and pushing people away when he gets angry. This is a problem, and definitely something that strains his relationships when something terrible and stressful happens to him--but he can be helped. It's far more common for people to do this, and Fitz can't be called a "jerk" or "bad" because of this. The people he cares about can help him get past this.

      Part Three-Sophie DOeSN’T Truly Trust Fitz Like She Trust a Certain Someone

      Honestly, this point isn't entirely at fault. I still think that trust does exist between them, though I can't say it doesn't need work. But, you can't say that Sophie probably wouldn't tell Fitz all those things if they weren't cognates or that she wouldn't trust him if he ran to the Neverseen because...it's not reality.

      We don't know what would have happened because it didn't, and there's a reason it didn't. So, personally, I don't think you can base some of those arguments on what might have happened.

      This doesn't mean I think Sophie and Fitz have flawless trust. They definitely need to work on that, and once they do, it would be great. I don't want to rehash everything in my main previous argument on this thread, but if you read it, you'd understand my stance on the trust regarded in both relationships.

      Part Four-Lord Cassius’s Head vs. Heart Theory and How I Think it Will Play a Role In The Infamous Love Triangle

      Frankly, it's difficult to debate with the Heart vs Head theory because it is just a theory. And until it's been confirmed, I don't really know which side to be on with it.

      On one hand, it may not even be valid. It could just be another added factoid that makes it easier to explain whenever emotions are brought up. For example, when Livvy is talking about the coloured pills in Legacy, and she talks about how different emotional centers bring different types of emotions. The Heart vs Head may only exist to further solidify her talking, instead of it coming out of nowhere in the series. After all, not everything in a story needs to be Chekhov's Gun.

      However, it has been mentioned enough times to make it seem as though that isn't the case, so maybe it really is a subtle nod to Sokeefe happening. Many Sokeefers have latched onto this idea. Although, the existence of this theory doesn't necessarily mean that Keefe is the one she loves with her heart--it could always be Fitz. ( just had to bring that up, since it's never explicitly stated that Keefe is the pure emotion heart side of the theory )

      But, on the third hand, since I'm assuming we're dealing with a mutant here, everything that's happened in the past books could be completely written off by the whole, coloured pill thing in Legacy. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it, but the direct quote is,

      “The good news,” Mr. Forkle told her, “is you made the right decision with the pill you selected. I can already feel your heart and mind communicating in ways they never have before.”

      So I assume that means we don't have to worry about separating Heart emotions from Head emotions, and that they're now one in the same. Meaning that any emotions Sophie feels from there on is just straight emotion. Which makes it a lot easier to distinguish.

      Part Five (also the final part)- A Random Fact That I Saw That Would Make Sokeefe Happen if the Head vs. Heart Theory is Correct

      Um...not really an argument but I admire your creativity. 

      • clap*

      Nice counter argument. I do agree with you that the Head vs Heart theory might not be related to the love triangle. And I know that Sophie and Fitz DO have some trust in each other, which I didn’t really make clear in my argument. I’m new to writing ship debates, since a lot of the wikis I’m on are well...not exactly ship debate friendly I guess.

      • double clap*
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    • ah well your argument was good for someone who's new to writing them so...

      I don't know, like *triple clap*?

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      SophitzVackster wrote:
      Sooooo this is pretty random but ANYWAYS I want to thank all the pple that replied and shared their views with me:)

      I learned A LOT from all of you haha

      If you want, follow me on Instagram @shaniagoh_

      LOVE U ALL!!!!!

      Glad to see you've enjoyed this thread! Also, I saw your Instagram account and I think you're the one who's profile says dancer? Idk if that was you so just asking

      HAHAHAHA yup thats me lol

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    • okaaaaay, WOW, just WOW

      HOW DO PPLE FIND SO MUCH TIME TO WRITE SUCH AMZINGLY LONG ARGUMENTS?????

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    • I am all Sophitz!

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    • My reasoning:

      -I think they seem more... real (dont judge)

      -Both of them are all for each other where with sokeefe it is more one sided

      -I love fitz's personality

      -They have actually dated

      -They have always been there fpr each other (Besides the part in exile when Fitz blamed Sophie for Aldens mind break, But you have to admit, the part where they made up was adorable!)

      Thats all I can think of for now... 

      BTW I am not against sokeefe i just PREFUR Sophitz

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    • And don't forget the fact that they don't have to be perfect, its what they want. If Sophie wants to be with Fitz, so be it her choice and vise versa. Like look at Joile, she knew that Brant was part of the Neverseen, but still wanted to be with him. So its honestly up to her.

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    • SophitzVackster wrote: okaaaaay, WOW, just WOW

      HOW DO PPLE FIND SO MUCH TIME TO WRITE SUCH AMZINGLY LONG ARGUMENTS?????

      I honestly have no clue. Mine took like two hours bc I'm kinda a slow typer.

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    • 205.154.183.253 wrote:

      -They have always been there fpr each other (Besides the part in exile when Fitz blamed Sophie for Aldens mind break, But you have to admit, the part where they made up was adorable!)

      hm..

      was he?

      each time, (in legacy, flashback, and exile) Fitz wasn't always there...

      notice something with the titles?

      Shannon has added more 'Fitz mad' scenes in the later books. That probably means that she showing us that Fitzphie won't work out. They got together for a short time then almost immediately fell apart. Shannon wouldn't do that for drama. She did it to show us that Fitzphie wouldn't work out.

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    • HurricanetheSeaWing234 wrote:

      205.154.183.253 wrote:

      -They have always been there fpr each other (Besides the part in exile when Fitz blamed Sophie for Aldens mind break, But you have to admit, the part where they made up was adorable!)

      hm..

      was he?

      each time, (in legacy, flashback, and exile) Fitz wasn't always there...

      notice something with the titles?

      Shannon has added more 'Fitz mad' scenes in the later books. That probably means that she showing us that Fitzphie won't work out. They got together for a short time then almost immediately fell apart. Shannon wouldn't do that for drama. She did it to show us that Fitzphie wouldn't work out.

      True true.

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    • 205.154.183.253 wrote:
      My reasoning:

      -I think they seem more... real (dont judge)

      -Both of them are all for each other where with sokeefe it is more one sided

      -I love fitz's personality

      -They have actually dated

      -They have always been there fpr each other (Besides the part in exile when Fitz blamed Sophie for Aldens mind break, But you have to admit, the part where they made up was adorable!)

      Thats all I can think of for now... 

      BTW I am not against sokeefe i just PREFUR Sophitz

      -I'm not going to argue against your first point, just that Sofitz is too perfect. I know that people say that Sofitz is not perfect and stuff, but it's just a powerful elf and the goldenboy 

      -Sophie does love Keefe with her heart, though her crush on Fitz just overshadowed it, and the short story proved that Keefe likes Sophie too

      -Fitz's personality. It's more of personal preference, though from Sophie's POV I didn't really like it. Um, Fitz was willing to think that Sophie would give up the good for him, and Sophie expected that Fitz would be fine with her helping the world instead of saving their relationship, which means their relationship was full of expectations but they never knew that the other expected them.

      -WHY is this such a big reason? Just because people(elves) date each other, doesn't mean they have to marry each other

      - When I shipped Sofitz, I kept rereading the part where they made up and I would be the one getting flutters in my heart and etc. Then I looked back, and I saw that Fitz didn't put much effort into his apology. He just smiled and said 'I was a huge jerk' and that's about it. Alvar was right that Sophie was letting him off too easy.

      I'm glad that you said that you prefer Sofitz over Sokeefe, not 'I hate Sokeefe and love Sofitz' or something like that!

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:

      205.154.183.253 wrote:
      My reasoning:

      -I think they seem more... real (dont judge)

      -Both of them are all for each other where with sokeefe it is more one sided

      -I love fitz's personality

      -They have actually dated

      -They have always been there fpr each other (Besides the part in exile when Fitz blamed Sophie for Aldens mind break, But you have to admit, the part where they made up was adorable!)

      Thats all I can think of for now... 

      BTW I am not against sokeefe i just PREFUR Sophitz

      -I'm not going to argue against your first point, just that Sofitz is too perfect. I know that people say that Sofitz is not perfect and stuff, but it's just a powerful elf and the goldenboy 

      -Sophie does love Keefe with her heart, though her crush on Fitz just overshadowed it, and the short story proved that Keefe likes Sophie too

      -Fitz's personality. It's more of personal preference, though from Sophie's POV I didn't really like it. Um, Fitz was willing to think that Sophie would give up the good for him, and Sophie expected that Fitz would be fine with her helping the world instead of saving their relationship, which means their relationship was full of expectations but they never knew that the other expected them.

      -WHY is this such a big reason? Just because people(elves) date each other, doesn't mean they have to marry each other

      - When I shipped Sofitz, I kept rereading the part where they made up and I would be the one getting flutters in my heart and etc. Then I looked back, and I saw that Fitz didn't put much effort into his apology. He just smiled and said 'I was a huge jerk' and that's about it. Alvar was right that Sophie was letting him off too easy.

      I'm glad that you said that you prefer Sofitz over Sokeefe, not 'I hate Sokeefe and love Sofitz' or something like that!

      Good points! I also hate when people hard core ship characters.

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    • ^thx. Many of the points I used here base off of my original arguments so it kind of made it easier for me to think through.

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    • Ok to start, I'm new to this, I havent read all the comments, and i'm a Sokeefe shipper. This will be short but here we are. Sophie herself stated two of the main reasons of why she liked Fitz was because of his looks and because he found her in The Lost Cities.Wherease with Keefe he earned her trust and friendship. Plus, I feel that Keefe is a better S/O for Sophie because Keefe is always supportive of Sophie and her dicisions and would stop at nothing to get her back if he ever hurt her. Unlike Fitz, who was mad at Sophie for not wanting to find her biological parents and not wanting to be involved in the match making process. He also refused to apologize and took his anger out on Alvar which lead to him opening the gate and letting in the neverseen. So yeah, that's my view

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    • Notif

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    • This is a thread?! I did not know that...

      -EllaTheElephant

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    • Oh and I’m EllaTheElephant (a.k.a. BlueLittleElephant) and would like to join!

      -EllaTheElephant

      Ps- I’m Sokeefe :)

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    • what # do you want?

      pick one that's not chosen

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    • No one's debated in a while....

      Oh well, I guess we're all going insane staying at home XD

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    • Yeah I guess we are XD

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    • hm...

      i'll make one!

      ~ Look on the cover of Legacy! Okay, it might represent Fitz and Keefe fighting over Sophie (they both look like they're trying to pull her onto their side) but look, Keefe looks worried about Sophie and is looking at her, but Fitz is looking determined, he isn't really thinking about Sophie's needs.      Oh yeah, I just wanted to point something out on the same cover:

      Sophie isn't looking at Keefe or either of them!!! Ack, that's against my argument O:

      On the all the other books either with Keefe or Fitz on the cover, Fitz always seems mad... It seems like the cover is usually when Fitz is facing the Neverseen... and Alvar. Meanwhile, Keefe never seems mad on the covers.

      Sophie isn't looking at Keefe on all of them too!!! Ack, that's against my argument again O:

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    • ^I guess....though this probably represents Sophie's obliviousness

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    • yeah, i have a habit of saying random stuff that turns out as against my argument...

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    • Uh... out of context but... I don’t think Legacy’s cover was supposed to be taken and dissected that thoroughly - it’s just capturing a moment in the book (that being Sophie inflicting with her new, fancy inflicting in London). So Shannon just wanted the artist to capture that moment in time.

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    • ^ True,

      and Keefe was probably worried about his mom attacking Sophie because he feels guilty, and Fitz was trying to get answers about Alvar

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    • Please remember to link to the message where an administrator approved your club or it may be closed.

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    • ^ Notif

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    • uh oh

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    • 2 things ook at the sokeefe page there is not many sofitzers there nd then look at the sofitz page HOLY MOLY THERE ARE ALL SOKEEFE ERS so ya also add me pls!

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    • IggyFloofMaster wrote:
      2 things ook at the sokeefe page there is not many sofitzers there nd then look at the sofitz page HOLY MOLY THERE ARE ALL SOKEEFE ERS so ya also add me pls!

      Sure, so you're Sokeefe, and what # do you want? Make sure it's not already chosen.

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      1. 1
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    • HurricanetheSeaWing234 wrote: what # do you want?

      pick one that's not chosen

      Can I have number 5?

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    • ugh hashtag

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    • IggyFloofMaster wrote:
      #1

      Surprisingly that's not chosen

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    • yup

      also truth or dare to all the ppl

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    • IggyFloofMaster wrote:
      yup

      also truth or dare to all the ppl

      Ooh! I dare someone here to say they ship the opposite ship (Sokeefe for Sofitzers and Sofitz for Sokeefers (and they have to stick to it for a day and they can't say that they were dared). Also, whoever does it, can truth or dare me!

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    • I dare someone to go to the sokeefe page read EVERY SINGLE THING then rant on the comments thing about how stupid it is if I did this I would cry 😆

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    • How about we play truth or dare on the truth or dare thread? This is the debate thread and i don't want it to fill up with this. 

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    • SophitzFoster wrote:
      Please remember to link to the message where an administrator approved your club or it may be closed.

      uh, did anyone respond to this yet?

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    • Great idea, Project Sokeefe! Does anybody have the thread link? Or can we start another? :)

      -EllaTheElephant

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    • HurricanetheSeaWing234 wrote:
      SophitzFoster wrote:
      Please remember to link to the message where an administrator approved your club or it may be closed.
      uh, did anyone respond to this yet?

      I sent a message to SofitzFoster but they haven't replied yet so we have to wait

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    • Does an Admin have to approve all clubs AND rollplays AND fanfics? 

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    • Only clubs I think

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    • Yeah just clubs

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    • No one's been on here for three days....:((

      So I'll start an argument. So a bunch of people say that Keefe is reckless and Fitz has anger issues. Both are exaggerated but true to some extent. Though what I want to point out is that Fitz's anger issues tend to cause him to...hurt his loved ones, especially Sophie, and he doesn't really try to fix them besides say sorry and smile. I'm not going to get into presents since in the last thread that turned very big, but Keefe does make reckless decisions. The thing is that he does it to protect his loved ones. Does Fitz deserved to be angry? Yes, but if he doesn't respect Sophie's decisions then that makes their relationship toxic. Neither one truly trusts the other, going back to my even if they're cognates they don't trust each other which I'm too lazy to write unless someone argues, but they also don't respect ea h other's decisions. Keefe stole the scroll, hid things from Sophie, so she doesn't panic and so she doesn't get hurt. This is just one standpoint of Sokeefe vs Sofitz.

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    • i'm a sokeefe shipper and i know that the presents argument is overused but... FITZ PAYED KEEFE TO DRAW SOMETHING OF SOPHIE AND HIM!!!! like WhAT?!!?

      -RoDizznee

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    • okay, but sophie specifically told keefe that they had to work as a team. and keefe agreed. so basically he was kinda being 'bad' in that sense. and sophie DID panic a bit soooo

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    • SophitzVackster wrote:
      okay, but sophie specifically told keefe that they had to work as a team. and keefe agreed. so basically he was kinda being 'bad' in that sense. and sophie DID panic a bit soooo

      Even if he didn't listen, which he did later on, he did to what? He did it to protect Sophie. A bunch of people tell Fitz to control his anger issues but he still has them, and I understand that they're not going to go overnight, just that Fitz really doesn't respect that SOphie made a decision without him. Keefe may not respect everything she says, but at least it was her choice.

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      SophitzVackster wrote:
      okay, but sophie specifically told keefe that they had to work as a team. and keefe agreed. so basically he was kinda being 'bad' in that sense. and sophie DID panic a bit soooo
      Even if he didn't listen, which he did later on, he did to what? He did it to protect Sophie. A bunch of people tell Fitz to control his anger issues but he still has them, and I understand that they're not going to go overnight, just that Fitz really doesn't respect that SOphie made a decision without him. Keefe may not respect everything she says, but at least it was her choice.

      Very true, particularly the Fitz part.

      But I've seen several people talk about how Keefe does these things to protect Sophie, and I honestly don't think it matters.

      Keefe breaks promises, loses valuable items, endangers himself, and loses trust just to try and protect someone who is already surrounded by allies and can find a solution. And even if that wasn't true and his actions save the day, eventually he will get himself maimed or killed in his attempts to save one person.

      Plus, when Keefe does these things, he doesn't think about all his friends. He thinks about Sophie. Instead of getting yourself killed to save one person, he needs to spend time to come up with a rational solution that will save as many as possible. He can't just run in head-first and throw his and others' lives on the line to protect Sophie.

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    • honestly?

      i agree

      i'm gonna argue for sophitz for a sec:

      I feel like Keefe keeps trying to impress Sophie and be the hero...

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    • Yeah I ship Sokeefe but I agree

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    • i need to stop arguing for the other side...

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    • JaxTheShade wrote:
      Project Sokeefe wrote:
      SophitzVackster wrote:
      okay, but sophie specifically told keefe that they had to work as a team. and keefe agreed. so basically he was kinda being 'bad' in that sense. and sophie DID panic a bit soooo
      Even if he didn't listen, which he did later on, he did to what? He did it to protect Sophie. A bunch of people tell Fitz to control his anger issues but he still has them, and I understand that they're not going to go overnight, just that Fitz really doesn't respect that SOphie made a decision without him. Keefe may not respect everything she says, but at least it was her choice.
      Very true, particularly the Fitz part.

      But I've seen several people talk about how Keefe does these things to protect Sophie, and I honestly don't think it matters.

      Keefe breaks promises, loses valuable items, endangers himself, and loses trust just to try and protect someone who is already surrounded by allies and can find a solution. And even if that wasn't true and his actions save the day, eventually he will get himself maimed or killed in his attempts to save one person.

      Plus, when Keefe does these things, he doesn't think about all his friends. He thinks about Sophie. Instead of getting yourself killed to save one person, he needs to spend time to come up with a rational solution that will save as many as possible. He can't just run in head-first and throw his and others' lives on the line to protect Sophie.

      I agree that Keefe does reckless things, but at least he doesn't just shout and yell which doesn't protect ANYONE. Also, Keefe doesn't just try to protect Sophie, he does keep their friends in mind. Technically Keefe never promised Sophie anything, but when he did, he did his best to keep it true. Keefe was willing to be the martyr, and honestly, every single one of them are. Sophie's friends know that they can die, so isn't that endangering them? Keefe did join the Neverseen to be a mole, but honestly, if he hadn't done that to keep the Neverseen distracted, imagine what else could've happened. And at least he tries to protect Sophie. I know Fitz does too...but sometimes it doesn't really seem like it. And we all know that Shannon won't kill Keefe off since you can imagine the outcry, and Sophie and Keefe do realize the high risk. I do agree that Keefe needs to make peace with his bad past, move on, and become less reckless, but I honestly think that ALL of them need to. People just target Keefe with the reckless thing, but all of the KOTLC characters need to do what I just said, including Sophie. Keefe is just a main character which is why his reckless actions are shown more than anyone else's. Also, if Keefe does all of this to protect one person, what does that make Tam's sacrifices? I mean, he's basically doing the same thing, but for his twin, and no one argues why Tam is reckless, and that leads back to that the other KOTLC characters's reckless actions aren't shown. IF Sophie did focus, then Keefe's actions would be overshadowed by some of them. I also feel that Fitz's actions were really overshadowed before Flashback because of Sophie's crush always clouding the situation. No matter how angry or stupid he was acting, Sophie would always say, "despite his angry expression, his teal eyes still looked blah blah blah." I mean, if Sophie had a crush on Keefe, let's say, then his actions would practically be non-existent. If the entire books were written without Sophie's crush on Fitz, then it'd a lot easier for Sophie to realize how wrong they are for each other.

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    • ( i actually think Keefe dying would be a good plot point--don't sue me )

      good points, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, since I feel as though Keefe doesn't always think of his other friends, and Tam did it more to protect the priceless creatures that could damage the Elven world than his twin

      nice rant

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    • IF KEEFE DIES THEN I WILL DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

      excuse my fangirlness

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    • authors gotta do what authors gotta do

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    • don't read this unless you don't like fitz

      he should join the neverseen-for real

      the whole "joining the neverseen but not actually" thing is getting repetitive-why not spice it up? ack sorry!

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    • HurricanetheSeaWing234 wrote: don't read this unless you don't like fitz

      he should join the neverseen-for real

      the whole "joining the neverseen but not actually" thing is getting repetitive-why not spice it up? ack sorry!

      Okay I said this on a theory page but...what if....





      DEX IS WITH THE NEVERSEEN? HE’S ALWAYS GONE(and yes he says he works with Tinker) BUT THERE IS NO WAY TO PROVE THAT AND WE DON’T EVEN KNOW TINKER’S IDENTITY

      IT WOULD BE A HUGE AND UNEXPECTED TWIST

      Dex is just enough included to get information, and excluded to not be noticed missing. It could explain why the NEVERSEEN always seem to know their plans and are five steps ahead

      I know I’m crazy...

      But just think about it

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    • suuuuuuuuuure

      buuuuuuut

      uuuumm

      let's just say dex doesn't really deserve that...

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    • ^I mean I don’t WANT Dex to be part of NEVERSEEN, but it just kinda makes sense.

      At least to me

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    • truuuuuueee

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    • I think that Alden is working with the Neverseen and that's why he wants Fitz and Sophie to be together so badly as the neverseen want to find out who Sophie's biological parents are. I mean why else would he go to Keefes house to tell him to back off Sophie?! 

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      SophitzVackster wrote:
      okay, but sophie specifically told keefe that they had to work as a team. and keefe agreed. so basically he was kinda being 'bad' in that sense. and sophie DID panic a bit soooo
      Even if he didn't listen, which he did later on, he did to what? He did it to protect Sophie. A bunch of people tell Fitz to control his anger issues but he still has them, and I understand that they're not going to go overnight, just that Fitz really doesn't respect that SOphie made a decision without him. Keefe may not respect everything she says, but at least it was her choice.

      well, alot of pple use fitz's anger issues against sophitz. thats fine.

      BUT. alot of pple don't seem to see that keefe has guilt + recklessness issues WHICH can be (note * can be *) and that 1. he gave sophie a tracker

      2. he didnt visit sophie after she came out of the healing center coz he 'didnt want to lose a bet' and many other reasons.



      for me, literally the only reasons i can see to support sokeefe is that kefe can calm her down and that fitz has anger issues.



      I'm not ship bashing, but if you think i am please let me know

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    • I don't really agree that Keefe has "guilt and recklessness issues" and Fitz has anger issues" because when you think about it, there haven't been that many times when Keefe was actually reckless. In all of the eight books, in all of the six hundred plus pages, he was only reckless, what, three or four times? AND he is only willing to take those risks for Sophie and her friends when he sees the opportunity to do so. I also dont think that he has guilt issues, because really, every elf has guilt issues since they are so sensitive to that sort of thing. Sophie only knows about his guilt because Keefe confides in her. There are lots of other elves who has to deal with guilt; Sophie herself, Alden Vacker, Oralie (because she didnt reveal her identity to Sophie and left her to be raised by others) and more. All elves grapple with guilt. For Fitz, well, i also dont believe he has anger issues because in all of the circumstances he was angry in, something big happened that affected him or his family negatively, like Alvar resurfacing abandoned by the neverseen and Alden getting his mind broken. Everyone deals with loss, pain, grief, and betrayal differently, and Fitz deals with it by lashing out and finding someone to blame, possibly so he doesnt start to blame himself (because as we all know, guilt is a dangerous thing for elves). When Aldens mind broke, Biana shut everyone out, wouldnt speak, and when she did, she acted like nobody was there. Della reacted by dressing up extravagantly and acting as if nothing was wrong. When Fitz found out that Sophie was possibly "malfunctioning" and she entered his mind to bring him back, he blamed her. It isnt good, but at least he apologized to Sophie BEFORE she healed his mind, regardless of whatever happened afterward. And again, all those times that he got angry was when something big happened that negatively affected him, and really, he didnt get angry at every single little thing that bothered him, did he? Thats what anger issues is. -Ripplepuffs1155

      P.S: can i join? I support both Sokeefe and Sophitz

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    • Hmmm the paragraphs didnt form

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    • 73.171.146.87 wrote:
      I don't really agree that Keefe has "guilt and recklessness issues" and Fitz has anger issues" because when you think about it, there haven't been that many times when Keefe was actually reckless. In all of the eight books, in all of the six hundred plus pages, he was only reckless, what, three or four times? AND he is only willing to take those risks for Sophie and her friends when he sees the opportunity to do so.

      I also dont think that he has guilt issues, because really, every elf has guilt issues since they are so sensitive to that sort of thing. Sophie only knows about his guilt because Keefe confides in her. There are lots of other elves who has to deal with guilt; Sophie herself, Alden Vacker, Oralie (because she didnt reveal her identity to Sophie and left her to be raised by others) and more. All elves grapple with guilt. For Fitz, well, i also dont believe he has anger issues because in all of the circumstances he was angry in, something big happened that affected him or his family negatively, like Alvar resurfacing abandoned by the neverseen and Alden getting his mind broken. Everyone deals with loss, pain, grief, and betrayal differently, and Fitz deals with it by lashing out and finding someone to blame, possibly so he doesnt start to blame himself (because as we all know, guilt is a dangerous thing for elves). When Aldens mind broke, Biana shut everyone out, wouldnt speak, and when she did, she acted like nobody was there. Della reacted by dressing up extravagantly and acting as if nothing was wrong. When Fitz found out that Sophie was possibly "malfunctioning" and she entered his mind to bring him back, he blamed her. It isnt good, but at least he apologized to Sophie BEFORE she healed his mind, regardless of whatever happened afterward. And again, all those times that he got angry was when something big happened that negatively affected him, and really, he didnt get angry at every single little thing that bothered him, did he? Thats what anger issues is. -Ripplepuffs1155

      P.S: can i join? I support both Sokeefe and Sophitz

      choose a number

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    • ^And can you make a nickname so I know how to add you?

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    • Wait can you add me?

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    • JaxTheShade wrote:
      ( i actually think Keefe dying would be a good plot point--don't sue me )

      good points, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, since I feel as though Keefe doesn't always think of his other friends, and Tam did it more to protect the priceless creatures that could damage the Elven world than his twin

      nice rant

      My friend and I always say that if Fitz dies or becomes a councillor, then the everything will be even. I mean, Fitz had Sophie or Linh, Sophie rejected him, and Linh is with Wylie, kind of obvious, so he should just become a councillor. I know that he can stay single, but it's honestly depressing having a love interest for everyone else but FItz...

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:

      JaxTheShade wrote:
      ( i actually think Keefe dying would be a good plot point--don't sue me )

      good points, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, since I feel as though Keefe doesn't always think of his other friends, and Tam did it more to protect the priceless creatures that could damage the Elven world than his twin

      nice rant

      My friend and I always say that if Fitz dies or becomes a councillor, then the everything will be even. I mean, Fitz had Sophie or Linh, Sophie rejected him, and Linh is with Wylie, kind of obvious, so he should just become a councillor. I know that he can stay single, but it's honestly depressing having a love interest for everyone else but FItz...

      Yeah. I really want him to become a councilor. Though I don't really love him as a character, I don't want him thrown away like what Tui (the Wings of fire author) did to (SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Winter after Darkness of Dragons

      Just my opinion.

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    • yeah...

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    • HurricanetheSeaWing234 wrote:
      73.171.146.87 wrote:
      I don't really agree that Keefe has "guilt and recklessness issues" and Fitz has anger issues" because when you think about it, there haven't been that many times when Keefe was actually reckless. In all of the eight books, in all of the six hundred plus pages, he was only reckless, what, three or four times? AND he is only willing to take those risks for Sophie and her friends when he sees the opportunity to do so.

      I also dont think that he has guilt issues, because really, every elf has guilt issues since they are so sensitive to that sort of thing. Sophie only knows about his guilt because Keefe confides in her. There are lots of other elves who has to deal with guilt; Sophie herself, Alden Vacker, Oralie (because she didnt reveal her identity to Sophie and left her to be raised by others) and more. All elves grapple with guilt. For Fitz, well, i also dont believe he has anger issues because in all of the circumstances he was angry in, something big happened that affected him or his family negatively, like Alvar resurfacing abandoned by the neverseen and Alden getting his mind broken. Everyone deals with loss, pain, grief, and betrayal differently, and Fitz deals with it by lashing out and finding someone to blame, possibly so he doesnt start to blame himself (because as we all know, guilt is a dangerous thing for elves). When Aldens mind broke, Biana shut everyone out, wouldnt speak, and when she did, she acted like nobody was there. Della reacted by dressing up extravagantly and acting as if nothing was wrong. When Fitz found out that Sophie was possibly "malfunctioning" and she entered his mind to bring him back, he blamed her. It isnt good, but at least he apologized to Sophie BEFORE she healed his mind, regardless of whatever happened afterward. And again, all those times that he got angry was when something big happened that negatively affected him, and really, he didnt get angry at every single little thing that bothered him, did he? Thats what anger issues is. -Ripplepuffs1155

      P.S: can i join? I support both Sokeefe and Sophitz

      choose a number

      Can I have #15? And my nickname can be Ripplepuffs1155 

      -Ripplepuffs1155

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    • WAnonymousWikiEditor wrote:
      Wait can you add me?

      What number and what ship?

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    • I don’t mean to offend anyone in the next paragraph these are just my opinions, so WAFFLES is it?

      I think that both Keefe and Fitz have flaws that they need to deal with, after all nobody is perfect and perfect characters would make a boring plot. However only one character has really recognized their problem and tried to deal with it, while the other seems to not be handling it as well. Keefe’s short story was a wonderful way for the author to portray his growth as a character. Shannon showed us that Keefe recognized not only that his recklessness and hero-like tendencies were problematic, but that it was also not what Sophie and her friends needed at the time. After this point Keefe tried his best to repress his reckless nature. On the other hand, we have not seen any recognition of his anger problems from Fitz other than short apologies to Sophie and unkept promises to stop his behaviour. Fitz has also never shown us a that he is trying to refrain from lashing out in stressful situations in the long term. Not only was his short story a plotless romantic piece, it was also useless in regards to his character development. We didn’t learn anything about Fitz other than his obvious crush on Sophie, which makes him seem like a one dimensional character that really has no personality or quirks to share.

      In conclusion, Shannon has wrote two vastly different flawed characters who are both struggling with their problems in different ways.

      I was also wondering if I could join? I’m a Sokeefe shipper and Any number really would be fine with me:)

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:

      WAnonymousWikiEditor wrote:
      Wait can you add me?

      What number and what ship?

      Um...I can be 45 and Sokeefe?

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    • AnonymousWikiEditor wrote:

      Project Sokeefe wrote:

      WAnonymousWikiEditor wrote:
      Wait can you add me?
      What number and what ship?
      Um...I can be 45 and Sokeefe?

      Sure! Great to have you here!

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    • 75.156.119.21 wrote:
      I don’t mean to offend anyone in the next paragraph these are just my opinions, so WAFFLES is it?

      I think that both Keefe and Fitz have flaws that they need to deal with, after all nobody is perfect and perfect characters would make a boring plot. However only one character has really recognized their problem and tried to deal with it, while the other seems to not be handling it as well. Keefe’s short story was a wonderful way for the author to portray his growth as a character. Shannon showed us that Keefe recognized not only that his recklessness and hero-like tendencies were problematic, but that it was also not what Sophie and her friends needed at the time. After this point Keefe tried his best to repress his reckless nature. On the other hand, we have not seen any recognition of his anger problems from Fitz other than short apologies to Sophie and unkept promises to stop his behaviour. Fitz has also never shown us a that he is trying to refrain from lashing out in stressful situations in the long term. Not only was his short story a plotless romantic piece, it was also useless in regards to his character development. We didn’t learn anything about Fitz other than his obvious crush on Sophie, which makes him seem like a one dimensional character that really has no personality or quirks to share.

      In conclusion, Shannon has wrote two vastly different flawed characters who are both struggling with their problems in different ways.

      I was also wondering if I could join? I’m a Sokeefe shipper and Any number really would be fine with me:)

      Thanks for illustrating how the love triangle brings out other character traits/development. I agree that it's a "plotless romance." 

      Lastly, what nickname do you want?

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    • ^ I actually have an account I just didn't realize that I was signed out:)

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    • Happy Shadow Thoughts Angry echoes-beware! wrote:
      ^ I actually have an account I just didn't realize that I was signed out:)

      Okay, thx for clarifying! 

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    • So where have all the Sofitz shippers gone? I'm waiting for an argument to argue against, sorry if that sounded rude or didn't make any sense. 

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote: So where have all the Sofitz shippers gone? I'm waiting for an argument to argue against, sorry if that sounded rude or didn't make any sense. 

      SAMEEEEE

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    • IceblueTriumphsoverall wrote:

      Project Sokeefe wrote: So where have all the Sofitz shippers gone? I'm waiting for an argument to argue against, sorry if that sounded rude or didn't make any sense. 

      SAMEEEEE

      We Sokeefers never sleep or ever leave Fandom for some reason...oh well, I guess we caught some of Keefe's procastinatess (sorry can't spell today)

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:

      IceblueTriumphsoverall wrote:

      Project Sokeefe wrote: So where have all the Sofitz shippers gone? I'm waiting for an argument to argue against, sorry if that sounded rude or didn't make any sense. 

      SAMEEEEE

      We Sokeefers never sleep or ever leave Fandom for some reason...oh well, I guess we caught some of Keefe's procastinatess (sorry can't spell today)

      wait i sleep does that make me not a true sokeefer?

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    • ^Nah, it was just a joke, though if you sleep, you're not a true Sophie Foster, that's for sure, sorry if that sounded rude.

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    •                                                    Sophie

      Keefe                                                                                  Fitz


      Likes Sophie for who she is                                 Wants to change Sophie into his image of the                                                                                  perfect girl



      Supports Sophie even when she is                       Is jealous when Keefe and Sophie hang out

      In a relationship with his best friend



      Controls his anger                                                 Does NOT control his anger



      Takes carefull planning into gifts which                Picks up the first thing he finds on the shelf for        He spends hours on                                            Sophie

      Is told to basically stay out of Fitzs                      Has his dad do his dirty work

      Way so he can have Sophie

      Lives a hard life with an evil mom                        Explodes over the dumbest things

      and at one point has a just reason for getting angry

      LOVES Sophie                                                       LIkes Sophie



      Let the facts fall where they may but clearly Keefe is better. 

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    • 64.113.177.66 wrote:                                                    Sophie

      Keefe                                                                                  Fitz


      Likes Sophie for who she is                                 Wants to change Sophie into his image of the                                                                                  perfect girl



      Supports Sophie even when she is                       Is jealous when Keefe and Sophie hang out

      In a relationship with his best friend



      Controls his anger                                                 Does NOT control his anger



      Takes carefull planning into gifts which                Picks up the first thing he finds on the shelf for        He spends hours on                                            Sophie

      Is told to basically stay out of Fitzs                      Has his dad do his dirty work

      Way so he can have Sophie

      Lives a hard life with an evil mom                        Explodes over the dumbest things

      and at one point has a just reason for getting angry

      LOVES Sophie                                                       LIkes Sophie



      Let the facts fall where they may but clearly Keefe is better. 

      Yes!!!!!!!

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    • ^How long did it take for you to make that? Great job comparing the two btw!

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    • whoa, thats awesome!



      i may have forgotten abt this thread...

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    • ^It's fine, I did too if I'm being honest

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    • wow...

      not to be rude, but its kind of biased...

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    • HurricanetheSeaWing234 wrote:
      wow...

      not to be rude, but its kind of biased...

      If what you mean is that this club was started by a me, Sokeefe member, then yes, it could be looked upon as biased, but I used to be a Sofitz member, and a hardcore one, until I switched. I do wish that a person who shipped both started this club, but I started one since I couldn't find any debate. But I'm would switch to Sofitz depending on the argument. 

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    • HurricanetheSeaWing234 wrote:
      wow...

      not to be rude, but its kind of biased...

      I agree with that...

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    • 64.113.177.66 wrote:
                                                         Sophie

      Keefe                                                                                  Fitz


      Likes Sophie for who she is                                 Wants to change Sophie into his image of the                                                                                  perfect girl



      Supports Sophie even when she is                       Is jealous when Keefe and Sophie hang out

      In a relationship with his best friend



      Controls his anger                                                 Does NOT control his anger



      Takes carefull planning into gifts which                Picks up the first thing he finds on the shelf for        He spends hours on                                            Sophie

      Is told to basically stay out of Fitzs                      Has his dad do his dirty work

      Way so he can have Sophie

      Lives a hard life with an evil mom                        Explodes over the dumbest things

      and at one point has a just reason for getting angry

      LOVES Sophie                                                       LIkes Sophie



      Let the facts fall where they may but clearly Keefe is better. 

      oops forgot to quote this.... i was responding to this

      this is an argument, but is it true that he is jealous when sokeefe hangs out? 

      is it true that he want to turn sophie into his image of a perfect girl?

      maybe you read complicated...

      but that is a fanfic.

      sorry i just felt like i needed to say that...

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    • Yup, I know, I was saying I agree with you that that argument sounds biased... as well as being very... how do I put it? It's like a pick and choose situation, where the argument is picking different traits from either person and trying to compare them, when there really is no way to compare negative traits with positive traits. And a few of them are definitely untrue... Fitz had no idea that Alden was meddling with everything.

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    • mhm...

      if there are no sofitz shippers left here, i can act as a temporary one...

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    • How I feel about SoKeefe and SoFitz:

      Honestly, I guess I can see why some people might like SoFitz. I mean their relationship is cute. They are cognates, both super powerful, and Fitz was even Sophie’s crush. However, it doesn’t seem like something that would last very long. I think both(especially Fitz) lack the dedication. I’m not saying that they won’t try, but seeing how quick their relationship went spiraling the first time, it doesn’t look too good. It just reminds me too much of those relationships people have in high school where it is more for show than actually having a connection. More like a, “hey I’m a teen now, I wonder how it would be to have a boyfriend...oh look! There’s a hot guy and we like each other! Let’s see how this goes...” I’m not saying this is exactly how it went, but it is what it reminds me of. A good boyfriend to start off with, but not permanent.

      For SoKeefe, I feel they actually have a deeper connection. It’s clear that Keefe would do anything for Sophie. Same could be said about Sophie. And even though they’re not cognates, their trust and understanding of each other goes very deep; a good making for a permanent relationship. They except each other for who they are, not who they want each other to be. And I think the fact that Sophie does not have a crush on Keefe is actually a really good thing. She’s not blinded by her own feelings, and can actually see who Keefe really is, his great qualities along with his flaws. Both have the dedication and trust to have a strong and steady relationship.

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    • okay, this being sofitz is a lot harder than i expected.

      part of me just want to yell, TAKE THAT FITZ!!

      another part wants to add on to your amazing argument...

      HELP!!!!

      can't find any loop holes...

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    • HurricanetheSeaWing234 wrote: okay, this being sofitz is a lot harder than i expected.

      part of me just want to yell, TAKE THAT FITZ!!

      another part wants to add on to your amazing argument...

      HELP!!!!

      can't find any loop holes...

      hehehe I take that as a compliment so thank you:)

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    • it is.

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    • does this love triangle seem like in frozen one?

      okay, this is weird, but so there's a cute (but evil or whatever sorry Fitz) and charming character that the main character immediately likes, and there's a super awesome nice guy that ends up with the main character...

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    • HurricanetheSeaWing234 wrote: does this love triangle seem like in frozen one?

      okay, this is weird, but so there's a cute (but evil or whatever sorry Fitz) and charming character that the main character immediately likes, and there's a super awesome nice guy that ends up with the main character...

      OMGOODNESS YOU ARE RIGHT

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    • XDXD

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    • I mean what I said about Keefe and Fitz is true. My friends are all split on the argument, but when we do debates Keefe always wins. If people can give me just reasons why Fitz is better, but even though the SophieFitz people responded with hate....they never proved what I said was wrong. I could go one on one with anyone over this argument and putting my opinons aside I would still win. And also what is with everyone calling Keefe a jerk. Fitz's dad (Basically the only good dad Keefe has) Told him to let Fitz be happy and ignore his own feeling. Yet some how people twist things to where they think Keefe is wrong to have feelings. UMMMM some people just read what they want, but the picture in the inside cover of Legacy says everything 

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    • So I went on the the Sofitz page and I asked why they shipped Sophie and Fitz and JaxTheShade replied saying to check their message wall. Check it since I found good arguments there: https://lost-cities-keeper.fandom.com/wiki/Message_Wall:JaxTheShade

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    • I read it and he still did not give any details from the book. He bassically said My friend is like Fitz, so I like Fitz. He did not give examples of characterstics. Lets face it. Keefe and Sophie for the win!

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    • Read my other arguments--I give facts there

      and actually I only posted that personal argument because people were asking

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    • ^

      He has really good arguments if you want to check them out, they're on his message wall

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    • I just got here but... Can I join I'll be #16 and my nickname will be Lady kiddo I ship both/I haven't decided yet

      -Lady kiddo

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    • So I used to ship Sofitz for six books and then I switched over. I don't know the exact moment or where in the book, I just remember I switched after/during Nightfall. MY heart used to flutter during Sofitz moments and I remember thinking Sophie and Fitz were perfect for each other, even after Exile. Then I saw that all Sophie saw Fitz was as an almost prince Vacker who had teal eyes and good looks which was the only reason she liked him. I agree that Fitz is caring and sweet, but it all BEGAN with his looks. Sophie may not have a crush on Keefe, but hers began with him helping her go to the Healing Center and so on. I think that Sophie's perspective of Fitz was practically overshadowed throughout the series making him seem perfect despite his actions. Sophie finally saw the real person (elf) he was in Legacy when they 'broke up.' Yes, it's fine that Fitz has flaws, but if you want to be in an honest/good relationship, then you have to embrace each other's flaws, hopes, and fears. Sophie and Fitz both expected different things from each other. Sophie thought that Fitz would be fine with her giving him up for the good of the world, while Fitz thought that all Sophie need was him. If you've read Shatter (also great love triangle) the main character has a similar realization and they were decided that they were better off friends. Meanwhile, Keefe may have betrayed Sophie's trust, but it wasn't only to protect her, but for the good of the world. Sophie and Keefe both understand the burden/sacrifice/responsibility of it. 

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote: So I used to ship Sofitz for six books and then I switched over. I don't know the exact moment or where in the book, I just remember I switched after/during Nightfall. MY heart used to flutter during Sofitz moments and I remember thinking Sophie and Fitz were perfect for each other, even after Exile. Then I saw that all Sophie saw Fitz was as an almost prince Vacker who had teal eyes and good looks which was the only reason she liked him. I agree that Fitz is caring and sweet, but it all BEGAN with his looks. Sophie may not have a crush on Keefe, but hers began with him helping her go to the Healing Center and so on. I think that Sophie's perspective of Fitz was practically overshadowed throughout the series making him seem perfect despite his actions. Sophie finally saw the real person (elf) he was in Legacy when they 'broke up.' Yes, it's fine that Fitz has flaws, but if you want to be in an honest/good relationship, then you have to embrace each other's flaws, hopes, and fears. Sophie and Fitz both expected different things from each other. Sophie thought that Fitz would be fine with her giving him up for the good of the world, while Fitz thought that all Sophie need was him. If you've read Shatter (also great love triangle) the main character has a similar realization and they were decided that they were better off friends. Meanwhile, Keefe may have betrayed Sophie's trust, but it wasn't only to protect her, but for the good of the world. Sophie and Keefe both understand the burden/sacrifice/responsibility of it. 

      Good argument! You should post it on the Sokeefe page

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    • ^Thx..I'm waiting for someone to counter-argue it though...

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    • Hi! So I have to leave the fandom VERY soon, but I will still be reading this page! See y’all soon! My last words (NOT TO OFFEND ANYONE) but my last words on this thread for a while are..................... I am okay with any ship, I just REALLY REALLY REALLY like Sokeefe 😉See y’all!

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    • SokeefeIsAWESOME1 wrote:
      Hi! So I have to leave the fandom VERY soon, but I will still be reading this page! See y’all soon!

      My last words (NOT TO OFFEND ANYONE) but my last words on this thread for a while are..................... I am okay with any ship, I just REALLY REALLY REALLY like Sokeefe 😉See y’all!

      Awww....goodbye! Great to know you'll still follow this page though!

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    • Fitz saved Sophie's life when he brought her to the lost cities and she said that she would always remember him like that. is that a good argument?

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    • -Lady kiddo

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    • well i'm a sophitz shipper and im here

      haha

      and y do so many pple call it sofitz??

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    • me

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    • I do

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    • https://lost-cities-keeper.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:1532640

      I think everyone will love this Fanfic! 

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    • 96.231.104.234 wrote:
      Fitz saved Sophie's life when he brought her to the lost cities and she said that she would always remember him like that. is that a good argument?

      Well that was simply because he looked good in the beginning and let her cry on his shoulder. If let's say Keefe brought to bring Sophie to the Lost Cities, then wouldn't she have a crush on him? 

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    • SophitzVackster wrote:
      well i'm a sophitz shipper and im here

      haha

      and y do so many pple call it sofitz??

      It's easier to spell/type

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    • yeah

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      SophitzVackster wrote:
      well i'm a sophitz shipper and im here

      haha

      and y do so many pple call it sofitz??

      It's easier to spell/type

      oh lol ic

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    • People call it Sophitz, Sofitz, or Fitzphie usually. Most ships have many names, like people call Keefe X Sophie- Sokeefe, or Team Foster-Keefe.

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    • BlueLittleElephant wrote: People call it Sophitz, Sofitz, or Fitzphie usually. Most ships have many names, like people call Keefe X Sophie- Sokeefe, or Team Foster-Keefe.

      Or Keephie:)

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      So I used to ship Sofitz for six books and then I switched over. I don't know the exact moment or where in the book, I just remember I switched after/during Nightfall. MY heart used to flutter during Sofitz moments and I remember thinking Sophie and Fitz were perfect for each other, even after Exile. Then I saw that all Sophie saw Fitz was as an almost prince Vacker who had teal eyes and good looks which was the only reason she liked him. I agree that Fitz is caring and sweet, but it all BEGAN with his looks. Sophie may not have a crush on Keefe, but hers began with him helping her go to the Healing Center and so on. I think that Sophie's perspective of Fitz was practically overshadowed throughout the series making him seem perfect despite his actions. Sophie finally saw the real person (elf) he was in Legacy when they 'broke up.' Yes, it's fine that Fitz has flaws, but if you want to be in an honest/good relationship, then you have to embrace each other's flaws, hopes, and fears. Sophie and Fitz both expected different things from each other. Sophie thought that Fitz would be fine with her giving him up for the good of the world, while Fitz thought that all Sophie need was him. If you've read Shatter (also great love triangle) the main character has a similar realization and they were decided that they were better off friends. Meanwhile, Keefe may have betrayed Sophie's trust, but it wasn't only to protect her, but for the good of the world. Sophie and Keefe both understand the burden/sacrifice/responsibility of it. 

      You said you wanted a counter argument so I'll try... (I'm a Sophitz shipper. but this is VERY well written!... so I'll try, but no guarantees it'll be any good)

      Sophie and Fitz never really expected things from each other. Sophie knew how Fitz would react about the match and such, which was why she was so stressed about telling him. Fitz also never really seemed to think that all Sophie needed was him, he just wanted her to take him into account because her match status affects them both (which is a little selfish, I'll admit, but everyone is, and Fitz's flaws don't necessarily make him a bad partner for Sophie, it just means they have room to grow and lots to teach each other).

      Additionally, maybe Sophie's attraction to Fitz began just based on appearance, but that changed and developed over time. Several times, she refers to him as caring and other such things over the course of the series. Additionally, I think it's worth acknowledging that he's the only person who could fully understand what she went through when she had to leave behind her human family, and he also proved to be a great shoulder to cry on (which is an important attribute- may elaborate later). Additionally, just because something isn't stated explicitly, doesn't mean it's nonexistent. There are lots of ways that show that Fitz is kind and understanding and more than a pretty face without Sophie explicitly stating it.

      I'm gonna elaborate on the shoulder to cry on thing a bit, because that's a little more personal. To me, someone being a shoulder to cry on is more than them just being there for you to cry into. It also shows that they're willing to be there for you, and proves that they can see you at your worst without it scaring them away. Over the course of the books, Sophie has cried on Fitz, vomited on Fitz, nearly fallen into Fitz, nearly died several times in front of Fitz, and several other moments where she has embarrassed herself or felt vulnerable in front of him. Through it all, he has proven that he's willing to be there for her (a shoulder to cry on), which, to me, is an important attribute. I'm not saying Keefe hasn't done many of these things, but he often also hides behind a sense of humor and uses that to help others, whereas Fitz is better with the whole here-for-you thing (example: when Sophie was about to almost die again and Keefe was joking around to try to help and then Fitz just gave her a hug. My heart melted).

      I've sorta run out of steam...... hope this is okay!

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    • I forgot to ask- can I join? (I'm Sophitz and can be #4 if you want)

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    • HermioneDizzneediAngelo wrote:
      I forgot to ask- can I join? (I'm Sophitz and can be #4 if you want)

      Sure! Of course you can join!

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    • XD

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    • I ship Sokeefe because there always so calm around each other. When sophies around Fitz it's like so awkward. 

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    • HermioneDizzneediAngelo wrote:
      Project Sokeefe wrote:
      So I used to ship Sofitz for six books and then I switched over. I don't know the exact moment or where in the book, I just remember I switched after/during Nightfall. MY heart used to flutter during Sofitz moments and I remember thinking Sophie and Fitz were perfect for each other, even after Exile. Then I saw that all Sophie saw Fitz was as an almost prince Vacker who had teal eyes and good looks which was the only reason she liked him. I agree that Fitz is caring and sweet, but it all BEGAN with his looks. Sophie may not have a crush on Keefe, but hers began with him helping her go to the Healing Center and so on. I think that Sophie's perspective of Fitz was practically overshadowed throughout the series making him seem perfect despite his actions. Sophie finally saw the real person (elf) he was in Legacy when they 'broke up.' Yes, it's fine that Fitz has flaws, but if you want to be in an honest/good relationship, then you have to embrace each other's flaws, hopes, and fears. Sophie and Fitz both expected different things from each other. Sophie thought that Fitz would be fine with her giving him up for the good of the world, while Fitz thought that all Sophie need was him. If you've read Shatter (also great love triangle) the main character has a similar realization and they were decided that they were better off friends. Meanwhile, Keefe may have betrayed Sophie's trust, but it wasn't only to protect her, but for the good of the world. Sophie and Keefe both understand the burden/sacrifice/responsibility of it. 
      You said you wanted a counter argument so I'll try... (I'm a Sophitz shipper. but this is VERY well written!... so I'll try, but no guarantees it'll be any good)

      Sophie and Fitz never really expected things from each other. Sophie knew how Fitz would react about the match and such, which was why she was so stressed about telling him. Fitz also never really seemed to think that all Sophie needed was him, he just wanted her to take him into account because her match status affects them both (which is a little selfish, I'll admit, but everyone is, and Fitz's flaws don't necessarily make him a bad partner for Sophie, it just means they have room to grow and lots to teach each other).

      Additionally, maybe Sophie's attraction to Fitz began just based on appearance, but that changed and developed over time. Several times, she refers to him as caring and other such things over the course of the series. Additionally, I think it's worth acknowledging that he's the only person who could fully understand what she went through when she had to leave behind her human family, and he also proved to be a great shoulder to cry on (which is an important attribute- may elaborate later). Additionally, just because something isn't stated explicitly, doesn't mean it's nonexistent. There are lots of ways that show that Fitz is kind and understanding and more than a pretty face without Sophie explicitly stating it.

      I'm gonna elaborate on the shoulder to cry on thing a bit, because that's a little more personal. To me, someone being a shoulder to cry on is more than them just being there for you to cry into. It also shows that they're willing to be there for you, and proves that they can see you at your worst without it scaring them away. Over the course of the books, Sophie has cried on Fitz, vomited on Fitz, nearly fallen into Fitz, nearly died several times in front of Fitz, and several other moments where she has embarrassed herself or felt vulnerable in front of him. Through it all, he has proven that he's willing to be there for her (a shoulder to cry on), which, to me, is an important attribute. I'm not saying Keefe hasn't done many of these things, but he often also hides behind a sense of humor and uses that to help others, whereas Fitz is better with the whole here-for-you thing (example: when Sophie was about to almost die again and Keefe was joking around to try to help and then Fitz just gave her a hug. My heart melted).

      I've sorta run out of steam...... hope this is okay!

      I agree that Fitz has redeeming traits, but they're traits which everyone of Sophie's friends have. I know that he is charming and as a former Sofitz shipper, I also used to swoon every Sofitz moment, but I never realized one important thing during the time I was reading. Sophie and Fitz never trusted each other. Not truly. I mean they're cognates, but Sophie was never excited to reveal all of her secrets to him at all. And trusting someone doesn't mean tell them all of your secrets, it means you're willing to let the other person keep secrets of their own and still trust them with them. Sophie and Fitz do trust each other, but not truly since Fitz was nagging Sophie about her secret (crush) on him which meant he didn't trust Sophie with it. I get that he might be curious but if he did respect Sophie's decision he would have stopped after seeing how uncomfortable she got. Also, Keefe hides behind his humour. True, but he let's Sophie she through him and see his fears, and desires. Fitz is there for Sophie, but Sophie always misunderstood his desires. Sophie did know that FItz was going to be angry about the match thing, but she didn't really know why besides the "he's a Vacker" part, he was truly angry but because he thought Sophie would give up the good of the world for him and Sophie thought the opposite. Sophie has embarrassed herself in front of Keefe too, and he's always willing to joke around and help her feel less uncomfortable but he was always there for her too. Also, Sophie's been vulnerable/embarassed in front of all of her friends and they were willing to be the shoulder to cry on too but as friends and I think Fitz would fit in that category well too. Sophie's crush on him did begin on his looks, but it grew so much that she overlooked his bad decisions (the minor ones) because she thought he was perfect, at least in her eyes. She did see his anger issues, but that was always under stress which made Sophie wave those away too. Also, when they found out Forkle had a twin, it said that Fitz was yelling at Forkle, while Keefe chose to stay be Sophie and make sure she was okay. Lastly, Sophie see's Keefe's flaws and she embraces them and Keefe respects Sophie's decisions which is what should happen in a good relationship. I'm not saying Sophie and Fitz weren't happy when they were together for however brief that was, it was just never going to last is all I'm saying.

      Thx for counter arguing! It's always fun to debate for me, and your argument was well written too!

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    • @HermioneDizzneediAngelo I thought that your argument was very good and a well rounded response to Project Sokeefe. However i did want to point out something about your second paragraph. Yes Sophie and Fitz's relationship has grown and developed quite a bit throughout the books, but up until Legacy Sophie still saw Fitz as a "Goldenboy" like Dex would say. Her crush on him blinded her to Fitz's flaws and while they developed their trust and even became cognates she maintained this false idea of the perfect guy and the perfect crush. Sophie does see his other attributes such as his honesty and kindness and as you mentioned his caring nature. However, Sophie remains mostly blind to his short temper and his brokenness.  (caused by Alvars betrayal) Yes some of his attributes, both good and bad, are not be stated explicitly, that is left up to the reader to pick up and comprehend. This does not mean that Sophie, our little oblivious queen, has picked up on his flaws. Since Sophie is the narrator, her not mentioning his troubles is a good indicator that she is blind to them. So when Fitz displays his temper and other flaws Sophie is so wrapped up in his Goldenboy appearance that she doesn't notice that he isn't the perfect guy she had always envisioned. 



      Just one more thing, when Sophie was almost about to die under that pancakes tree in Legacy, Keefe understood that Sophie in that moment did not need a hug to make her more worried about what she was getting into. Keefe knew that Sophie needed something to distract her from what was happening. So his jokes and distractions are a sign of how well he knew Sophie, and he was even there when she woke up and needed comfort at that time. This is actually what Sophie actually though while Fitz was hugging her .

      “She held her breath, trying to brace for whatever Fitz was going to say.
      But he didn’t say anything.
      He just wrapped his arms around her—gently at first.
      Then hugging her so much harder.
      Like he was afraid to let her go—and maybe he was. Because his voice filled Sophie’s head, his consciousness slipping past all of her barriers so he could tell her, I know you’re trying to stop yourself from worrying too much—but I can’t laugh about this, Sophie. This is serious.”

      Excerpt From
      Legacy (Keeper of the Lost Cities Book 8)
      Shannon Messenger
      This material may be protected by copyright.

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    • Personally, I think lots of people started off wanting Fitz and then creeping over to Keefe's side as flaws were revealed, but I on the other hand always wanted Keefe. I paid close attention to keefe's pros and cons as well as Fitz's pros and cons. To be honest Sophie has pro and cons herself too. But sometimes it doesn't matter who the better person is in general, it's who is better person for Sophie.

      Keefe's pros- He has a remarkable sense of humor and tends to be good at making others feel better and lightening up moods. He is also caring and is very passionite about things. He also has lived through some hard things, so he is very sympathetic toward other people. He also seems to have a deep understanding of how people are feeling and how to help him. (I am aware he is an empath, but I still find that a Pro.)

      Keefe's cons- Can sometimes go to far with jokes and isn't always serious when necassary. Also occationally when he is trying to do the right thing, he ends up doing the wrong thing. He also tends to ditch class at Foxfire.

      Fitz's pros- He is kind and and wishes the best for others. He is also excepting toward others. For the most part excells at anything he puts his mind too. He is forgiving of others. Feels happy for other people. He is also honest. 

      Fitz's cons- He deals with anger badly. Sometimes ignores other peoples feelings. Sometimes has a hard time understanding peoples feelings. Puts himself first sometimes when he shouldn't. 

      Sophie has gone lots of hard things and she needs someone who will have a good understanding of that and will be aware how to comfort and help her. She also needs someone who is going to deal with the fact that sometimes Sophie has to come first. I mean she has a lot going on and sometimes you need to follow her lead on what she wants to do. While I don't think Fitz is a bad person, I just think he is not right for Sophie. I think what Sophie needs most is for someone who can understand her and from what I see that is Keefe. 

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    • Another point I didn't include is Sophie is also right for Keefe because Keefe also needs some one who will understand him.

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    • 64.113.177.66 wrote:
      Personally, I think lots of people started off wanting Fitz and then creeping over to Keefe's side as flaws were revealed, but I on the other hand always wanted Keefe. I paid close attention to keefe's pros and cons as well as Fitz's pros and cons. To be honest Sophie has pro and cons herself too. But sometimes it doesn't matter who the better person is in general, it's who is better person for Sophie.

      Keefe's pros- He has a remarkable sense of humor and tends to be good at making others feel better and lightening up moods. He is also caring and is very passionite about things. He also has lived through some hard things, so he is very sympathetic toward other people. He also seems to have a deep understanding of how people are feeling and how to help him. (I am aware he is an empath, but I still find that a Pro.)

      Keefe's cons- Can sometimes go to far with jokes and isn't always serious when necassary. Also occationally when he is trying to do the right thing, he ends up doing the wrong thing. He also tends to ditch class at Foxfire.

      Fitz's pros- He is kind and and wishes the best for others. He is also excepting toward others. For the most part excells at anything he puts his mind too. He is forgiving of others. Feels happy for other people. He is also honest. 

      Fitz's cons- He deals with anger badly. Sometimes ignores other peoples feelings. Sometimes has a hard time understanding peoples feelings. Puts himself first sometimes when he shouldn't. 

      Sophie has gone lots of hard things and she needs someone who will have a good understanding of that and will be aware how to comfort and help her. She also needs someone who is going to deal with the fact that sometimes Sophie has to come first. I mean she has a lot going on and sometimes you need to follow her lead on what she wants to do. While I don't think Fitz is a bad person, I just think he is not right for Sophie. I think what Sophie needs most is for someone who can understand her and from what I see that is Keefe. 

      I agree with your points. Though most Sofitz shippers say that Keefe is too reckless and that he has a serious mental illness and relies on Sophie too much.

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    • Mental illness? i think they have a mental illness. Lol

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    • 104.139.114.69 wrote: I honestly cannot stand Fitz but I don't want to make anyone feel bad. Fitz has been a jerk more times than Keefe, Keefe has been there for Sophie sooooo many times to comfort her and make her feel better. Fitz has too but he also has caused her so much stress and depression  Keefe has only done that in like one book unlike Fitz. Keefe got angry because she started dating a boy who has hurt her a lot and Keefe love's Sophie. Fitz try's to change who Sophie is and controls her, that should not be how a boyfriend should treat you, Keefe let's Sophie make her own decisions and loves her the way she is. Sophie feels safe with Keefe and that is why she turns to him first, Fitz makes her so self-conscious and worried. I also agree with a lot of what other people said. I am sorry if I made you feel bad about your opinion.



      - Sokeefeforever 

      I know this is like a lot late but can I join?


      - Sokeefeforever

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    • honestly, i think sophie has great options. unlike literally everybody else i know, i think that sophie can and should choose whoever she wants. They both have struggles and i dont think that is a reason we should promote or degenerate either of them. She could also pick anybody else. or she could stay single. its her choice and besides, i get whichever one she doesnt pick. Mwahaha

      $$$

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      HermioneDizzneediAngelo wrote:
      Project Sokeefe wrote:
      So I used to ship Sofitz for six books and then I switched over. I don't know the exact moment or where in the book, I just remember I switched after/during Nightfall. MY heart used to flutter during Sofitz moments and I remember thinking Sophie and Fitz were perfect for each other, even after Exile. Then I saw that all Sophie saw Fitz was as an almost prince Vacker who had teal eyes and good looks which was the only reason she liked him. I agree that Fitz is caring and sweet, but it all BEGAN with his looks. Sophie may not have a crush on Keefe, but hers began with him helping her go to the Healing Center and so on. I think that Sophie's perspective of Fitz was practically overshadowed throughout the series making him seem perfect despite his actions. Sophie finally saw the real person (elf) he was in Legacy when they 'broke up.' Yes, it's fine that Fitz has flaws, but if you want to be in an honest/good relationship, then you have to embrace each other's flaws, hopes, and fears. Sophie and Fitz both expected different things from each other. Sophie thought that Fitz would be fine with her giving him up for the good of the world, while Fitz thought that all Sophie need was him. If you've read Shatter (also great love triangle) the main character has a similar realization and they were decided that they were better off friends. Meanwhile, Keefe may have betrayed Sophie's trust, but it wasn't only to protect her, but for the good of the world. Sophie and Keefe both understand the burden/sacrifice/responsibility of it. 
      You said you wanted a counter argument so I'll try... (I'm a Sophitz shipper. but this is VERY well written!... so I'll try, but no guarantees it'll be any good)

      Sophie and Fitz never really expected things from each other. Sophie knew how Fitz would react about the match and such, which was why she was so stressed about telling him. Fitz also never really seemed to think that all Sophie needed was him, he just wanted her to take him into account because her match status affects them both (which is a little selfish, I'll admit, but everyone is, and Fitz's flaws don't necessarily make him a bad partner for Sophie, it just means they have room to grow and lots to teach each other).

      Additionally, maybe Sophie's attraction to Fitz began just based on appearance, but that changed and developed over time. Several times, she refers to him as caring and other such things over the course of the series. Additionally, I think it's worth acknowledging that he's the only person who could fully understand what she went through when she had to leave behind her human family, and he also proved to be a great shoulder to cry on (which is an important attribute- may elaborate later). Additionally, just because something isn't stated explicitly, doesn't mean it's nonexistent. There are lots of ways that show that Fitz is kind and understanding and more than a pretty face without Sophie explicitly stating it.

      I'm gonna elaborate on the shoulder to cry on thing a bit, because that's a little more personal. To me, someone being a shoulder to cry on is more than them just being there for you to cry into. It also shows that they're willing to be there for you, and proves that they can see you at your worst without it scaring them away. Over the course of the books, Sophie has cried on Fitz, vomited on Fitz, nearly fallen into Fitz, nearly died several times in front of Fitz, and several other moments where she has embarrassed herself or felt vulnerable in front of him. Through it all, he has proven that he's willing to be there for her (a shoulder to cry on), which, to me, is an important attribute. I'm not saying Keefe hasn't done many of these things, but he often also hides behind a sense of humor and uses that to help others, whereas Fitz is better with the whole here-for-you thing (example: when Sophie was about to almost die again and Keefe was joking around to try to help and then Fitz just gave her a hug. My heart melted).

      I've sorta run out of steam...... hope this is okay!

      I agree that Fitz has redeeming traits, but they're traits which everyone of Sophie's friends have. I know that he is charming and as a former Sofitz shipper, I also used to swoon every Sofitz moment, but I never realized one important thing during the time I was reading. Sophie and Fitz never trusted each other. Not truly. I mean they're cognates, but Sophie was never excited to reveal all of her secrets to him at all. And trusting someone doesn't mean tell them all of your secrets, it means you're willing to let the other person keep secrets of their own and still trust them with them. Sophie and Fitz do trust each other, but not truly since Fitz was nagging Sophie about her secret (crush) on him which meant he didn't trust Sophie with it. I get that he might be curious but if he did respect Sophie's decision he would have stopped after seeing how uncomfortable she got. Also, Keefe hides behind his humour. True, but he let's Sophie she through him and see his fears, and desires. Fitz is there for Sophie, but Sophie always misunderstood his desires. Sophie did know that FItz was going to be angry about the match thing, but she didn't really know why besides the "he's a Vacker" part, he was truly angry but because he thought Sophie would give up the good of the world for him and Sophie thought the opposite. Sophie has embarrassed herself in front of Keefe too, and he's always willing to joke around and help her feel less uncomfortable but he was always there for her too. Also, Sophie's been vulnerable/embarassed in front of all of her friends and they were willing to be the shoulder to cry on too but as friends and I think Fitz would fit in that category well too. Sophie's crush on him did begin on his looks, but it grew so much that she overlooked his bad decisions (the minor ones) because she thought he was perfect, at least in her eyes. She did see his anger issues, but that was always under stress which made Sophie wave those away too. Also, when they found out Forkle had a twin, it said that Fitz was yelling at Forkle, while Keefe chose to stay be Sophie and make sure she was okay. Lastly, Sophie see's Keefe's flaws and she embraces them and Keefe respects Sophie's decisions which is what should happen in a good relationship. I'm not saying Sophie and Fitz weren't happy when they were together for however brief that was, it was just never going to last is all I'm saying.

      Thx for counter arguing! It's always fun to debate for me, and your argument was well written too!

      All of your pints are truly well thought out and valid. BUT, Sophie didn't 'trust' Fitz as she did not want to tell him about her crush on him as she feared she would be rejected. And in Flashback, it said:'and di plenty of trust exercises, which were surprisingly easy after all the crush stuff came out' or something of the sort.

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    • 64.113.177.66 wrote:
      Personally, I think lots of people started off wanting Fitz and then creeping over to Keefe's side as flaws were revealed, but I on the other hand always wanted Keefe. I paid close attention to keefe's pros and cons as well as Fitz's pros and cons. To be honest Sophie has pro and cons herself too. But sometimes it doesn't matter who the better person is in general, it's who is better person for Sophie.

      Keefe's pros- He has a remarkable sense of humor and tends to be good at making others feel better and lightening up moods. He is also caring and is very passionite about things. He also has lived through some hard things, so he is very sympathetic toward other people. He also seems to have a deep understanding of how people are feeling and how to help him. (I am aware he is an empath, but I still find that a Pro.)

      Keefe's cons- Can sometimes go to far with jokes and isn't always serious when necassary. Also occationally when he is trying to do the right thing, he ends up doing the wrong thing. He also tends to ditch class at Foxfire.

      Fitz's pros- He is kind and and wishes the best for others. He is also excepting toward others. For the most part excells at anything he puts his mind too. He is forgiving of others. Feels happy for other people. He is also honest. 

      Fitz's cons- He deals with anger badly. Sometimes ignores other peoples feelings. Sometimes has a hard time understanding peoples feelings. Puts himself first sometimes when he shouldn't. 

      Sophie has gone lots of hard things and she needs someone who will have a good understanding of that and will be aware how to comfort and help her. She also needs someone who is going to deal with the fact that sometimes Sophie has to come first. I mean she has a lot going on and sometimes you need to follow her lead on what she wants to do. While I don't think Fitz is a bad person, I just think he is not right for Sophie. I think what Sophie needs most is for someone who can understand her and from what I see that is Keefe. 

      I agree with most of your ponts and reasons, but my list of pros and cons are WAYYYYYY longer for both boys. I'll be happy to share them when I've got time to type it all down xD

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    • IceblueTriumphsoverall wrote:

      BlueLittleElephant wrote: People call it Sophitz, Sofitz, or Fitzphie usually. Most ships have many names, like people call Keefe X Sophie- Sokeefe, or Team Foster-Keefe.

      Or Keephie:)

      yeah but for some reason to me it sorta sounds like an animal lmao

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    • SophitzVackster wrote:
      Project Sokeefe wrote:
      HermioneDizzneediAngelo wrote:
      Project Sokeefe wrote:
      So I used to ship Sofitz for six books and then I switched over. I don't know the exact moment or where in the book, I just remember I switched after/during Nightfall. MY heart used to flutter during Sofitz moments and I remember thinking Sophie and Fitz were perfect for each other, even after Exile. Then I saw that all Sophie saw Fitz was as an almost prince Vacker who had teal eyes and good looks which was the only reason she liked him. I agree that Fitz is caring and sweet, but it all BEGAN with his looks. Sophie may not have a crush on Keefe, but hers began with him helping her go to the Healing Center and so on. I think that Sophie's perspective of Fitz was practically overshadowed throughout the series making him seem perfect despite his actions. Sophie finally saw the real person (elf) he was in Legacy when they 'broke up.' Yes, it's fine that Fitz has flaws, but if you want to be in an honest/good relationship, then you have to embrace each other's flaws, hopes, and fears. Sophie and Fitz both expected different things from each other. Sophie thought that Fitz would be fine with her giving him up for the good of the world, while Fitz thought that all Sophie need was him. If you've read Shatter (also great love triangle) the main character has a similar realization and they were decided that they were better off friends. Meanwhile, Keefe may have betrayed Sophie's trust, but it wasn't only to protect her, but for the good of the world. Sophie and Keefe both understand the burden/sacrifice/responsibility of it. 
      You said you wanted a counter argument so I'll try... (I'm a Sophitz shipper. but this is VERY well written!... so I'll try, but no guarantees it'll be any good)

      Sophie and Fitz never really expected things from each other. Sophie knew how Fitz would react about the match and such, which was why she was so stressed about telling him. Fitz also never really seemed to think that all Sophie needed was him, he just wanted her to take him into account because her match status affects them both (which is a little selfish, I'll admit, but everyone is, and Fitz's flaws don't necessarily make him a bad partner for Sophie, it just means they have room to grow and lots to teach each other).

      Additionally, maybe Sophie's attraction to Fitz began just based on appearance, but that changed and developed over time. Several times, she refers to him as caring and other such things over the course of the series. Additionally, I think it's worth acknowledging that he's the only person who could fully understand what she went through when she had to leave behind her human family, and he also proved to be a great shoulder to cry on (which is an important attribute- may elaborate later). Additionally, just because something isn't stated explicitly, doesn't mean it's nonexistent. There are lots of ways that show that Fitz is kind and understanding and more than a pretty face without Sophie explicitly stating it.

      I'm gonna elaborate on the shoulder to cry on thing a bit, because that's a little more personal. To me, someone being a shoulder to cry on is more than them just being there for you to cry into. It also shows that they're willing to be there for you, and proves that they can see you at your worst without it scaring them away. Over the course of the books, Sophie has cried on Fitz, vomited on Fitz, nearly fallen into Fitz, nearly died several times in front of Fitz, and several other moments where she has embarrassed herself or felt vulnerable in front of him. Through it all, he has proven that he's willing to be there for her (a shoulder to cry on), which, to me, is an important attribute. I'm not saying Keefe hasn't done many of these things, but he often also hides behind a sense of humor and uses that to help others, whereas Fitz is better with the whole here-for-you thing (example: when Sophie was about to almost die again and Keefe was joking around to try to help and then Fitz just gave her a hug. My heart melted).

      I've sorta run out of steam...... hope this is okay!

      I agree that Fitz has redeeming traits, but they're traits which everyone of Sophie's friends have. I know that he is charming and as a former Sofitz shipper, I also used to swoon every Sofitz moment, but I never realized one important thing during the time I was reading. Sophie and Fitz never trusted each other. Not truly. I mean they're cognates, but Sophie was never excited to reveal all of her secrets to him at all. And trusting someone doesn't mean tell them all of your secrets, it means you're willing to let the other person keep secrets of their own and still trust them with them. Sophie and Fitz do trust each other, but not truly since Fitz was nagging Sophie about her secret (crush) on him which meant he didn't trust Sophie with it. I get that he might be curious but if he did respect Sophie's decision he would have stopped after seeing how uncomfortable she got. Also, Keefe hides behind his humour. True, but he let's Sophie she through him and see his fears, and desires. Fitz is there for Sophie, but Sophie always misunderstood his desires. Sophie did know that FItz was going to be angry about the match thing, but she didn't really know why besides the "he's a Vacker" part, he was truly angry but because he thought Sophie would give up the good of the world for him and Sophie thought the opposite. Sophie has embarrassed herself in front of Keefe too, and he's always willing to joke around and help her feel less uncomfortable but he was always there for her too. Also, Sophie's been vulnerable/embarassed in front of all of her friends and they were willing to be the shoulder to cry on too but as friends and I think Fitz would fit in that category well too. Sophie's crush on him did begin on his looks, but it grew so much that she overlooked his bad decisions (the minor ones) because she thought he was perfect, at least in her eyes. She did see his anger issues, but that was always under stress which made Sophie wave those away too. Also, when they found out Forkle had a twin, it said that Fitz was yelling at Forkle, while Keefe chose to stay be Sophie and make sure she was okay. Lastly, Sophie see's Keefe's flaws and she embraces them and Keefe respects Sophie's decisions which is what should happen in a good relationship. I'm not saying Sophie and Fitz weren't happy when they were together for however brief that was, it was just never going to last is all I'm saying.

      Thx for counter arguing! It's always fun to debate for me, and your argument was well written too!

      All of your pints are truly well thought out and valid. BUT, Sophie didn't 'trust' Fitz as she did not want to tell him about her crush on him as she feared she would be rejected. And in Flashback, it said:'and di plenty of trust exercises, which were surprisingly easy after all the crush stuff came out' or something of the sort.

      Ok just a small addition here, but one could counterargue Project Sokeefes original argument by saying that Sophie and Keefe's relationship started with him being sarcastic and skipping class, which seems to also be a pretty shallow basis for a marrige or other relationship. both of those boys had a small thing that Sophie admired or enjoyed, and then it branched off into deeper, more personal relationships

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    • ^^$$$ sorry forgot

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    • SophitzVackster wrote:
      Project Sokeefe wrote:
      HermioneDizzneediAngelo wrote:
      Project Sokeefe wrote:
      So I used to ship Sofitz for six books and then I switched over. I don't know the exact moment or where in the book, I just remember I switched after/during Nightfall. MY heart used to flutter during Sofitz moments and I remember thinking Sophie and Fitz were perfect for each other, even after Exile. Then I saw that all Sophie saw Fitz was as an almost prince Vacker who had teal eyes and good looks which was the only reason she liked him. I agree that Fitz is caring and sweet, but it all BEGAN with his looks. Sophie may not have a crush on Keefe, but hers began with him helping her go to the Healing Center and so on. I think that Sophie's perspective of Fitz was practically overshadowed throughout the series making him seem perfect despite his actions. Sophie finally saw the real person (elf) he was in Legacy when they 'broke up.' Yes, it's fine that Fitz has flaws, but if you want to be in an honest/good relationship, then you have to embrace each other's flaws, hopes, and fears. Sophie and Fitz both expected different things from each other. Sophie thought that Fitz would be fine with her giving him up for the good of the world, while Fitz thought that all Sophie need was him. If you've read Shatter (also great love triangle) the main character has a similar realization and they were decided that they were better off friends. Meanwhile, Keefe may have betrayed Sophie's trust, but it wasn't only to protect her, but for the good of the world. Sophie and Keefe both understand the burden/sacrifice/responsibility of it. 
      You said you wanted a counter argument so I'll try... (I'm a Sophitz shipper. but this is VERY well written!... so I'll try, but no guarantees it'll be any good)

      Sophie and Fitz never really expected things from each other. Sophie knew how Fitz would react about the match and such, which was why she was so stressed about telling him. Fitz also never really seemed to think that all Sophie needed was him, he just wanted her to take him into account because her match status affects them both (which is a little selfish, I'll admit, but everyone is, and Fitz's flaws don't necessarily make him a bad partner for Sophie, it just means they have room to grow and lots to teach each other).

      Additionally, maybe Sophie's attraction to Fitz began just based on appearance, but that changed and developed over time. Several times, she refers to him as caring and other such things over the course of the series. Additionally, I think it's worth acknowledging that he's the only person who could fully understand what she went through when she had to leave behind her human family, and he also proved to be a great shoulder to cry on (which is an important attribute- may elaborate later). Additionally, just because something isn't stated explicitly, doesn't mean it's nonexistent. There are lots of ways that show that Fitz is kind and understanding and more than a pretty face without Sophie explicitly stating it.

      I'm gonna elaborate on the shoulder to cry on thing a bit, because that's a little more personal. To me, someone being a shoulder to cry on is more than them just being there for you to cry into. It also shows that they're willing to be there for you, and proves that they can see you at your worst without it scaring them away. Over the course of the books, Sophie has cried on Fitz, vomited on Fitz, nearly fallen into Fitz, nearly died several times in front of Fitz, and several other moments where she has embarrassed herself or felt vulnerable in front of him. Through it all, he has proven that he's willing to be there for her (a shoulder to cry on), which, to me, is an important attribute. I'm not saying Keefe hasn't done many of these things, but he often also hides behind a sense of humor and uses that to help others, whereas Fitz is better with the whole here-for-you thing (example: when Sophie was about to almost die again and Keefe was joking around to try to help and then Fitz just gave her a hug. My heart melted).

      I've sorta run out of steam...... hope this is okay!

      I agree that Fitz has redeeming traits, but they're traits which everyone of Sophie's friends have. I know that he is charming and as a former Sofitz shipper, I also used to swoon every Sofitz moment, but I never realized one important thing during the time I was reading. Sophie and Fitz never trusted each other. Not truly. I mean they're cognates, but Sophie was never excited to reveal all of her secrets to him at all. And trusting someone doesn't mean tell them all of your secrets, it means you're willing to let the other person keep secrets of their own and still trust them with them. Sophie and Fitz do trust each other, but not truly since Fitz was nagging Sophie about her secret (crush) on him which meant he didn't trust Sophie with it. I get that he might be curious but if he did respect Sophie's decision he would have stopped after seeing how uncomfortable she got. Also, Keefe hides behind his humour. True, but he let's Sophie she through him and see his fears, and desires. Fitz is there for Sophie, but Sophie always misunderstood his desires. Sophie did know that FItz was going to be angry about the match thing, but she didn't really know why besides the "he's a Vacker" part, he was truly angry but because he thought Sophie would give up the good of the world for him and Sophie thought the opposite. Sophie has embarrassed herself in front of Keefe too, and he's always willing to joke around and help her feel less uncomfortable but he was always there for her too. Also, Sophie's been vulnerable/embarassed in front of all of her friends and they were willing to be the shoulder to cry on too but as friends and I think Fitz would fit in that category well too. Sophie's crush on him did begin on his looks, but it grew so much that she overlooked his bad decisions (the minor ones) because she thought he was perfect, at least in her eyes. She did see his anger issues, but that was always under stress which made Sophie wave those away too. Also, when they found out Forkle had a twin, it said that Fitz was yelling at Forkle, while Keefe chose to stay be Sophie and make sure she was okay. Lastly, Sophie see's Keefe's flaws and she embraces them and Keefe respects Sophie's decisions which is what should happen in a good relationship. I'm not saying Sophie and Fitz weren't happy when they were together for however brief that was, it was just never going to last is all I'm saying.

      Thx for counter arguing! It's always fun to debate for me, and your argument was well written too!

      All of your pints are truly well thought out and valid. BUT, Sophie didn't 'trust' Fitz as she did not want to tell him about her crush on him as she feared she would be rejected. And in Flashback, it said:'and di plenty of trust exercises, which were surprisingly easy after all the crush stuff came out' or something of the sort.

      That is true, but later on she didn't trust him with her biological mom's personality or other things like at first she didn't want to tell him about Alvar then she thought he deserved to know. 

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    • wow do you really spend the time to write that much on a comment.

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    • That happens all the time

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    • yea

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    • who wanna LC

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    • 71.191.81.176 wrote:
      SophitzVackster wrote:
      Project Sokeefe wrote:
      HermioneDizzneediAngelo wrote:
      Project Sokeefe wrote:
      So I used to ship Sofitz for six books and then I switched over. I don't know the exact moment or where in the book, I just remember I switched after/during Nightfall. MY heart used to flutter during Sofitz moments and I remember thinking Sophie and Fitz were perfect for each other, even after Exile. Then I saw that all Sophie saw Fitz was as an almost prince Vacker who had teal eyes and good looks which was the only reason she liked him. I agree that Fitz is caring and sweet, but it all BEGAN with his looks. Sophie may not have a crush on Keefe, but hers began with him helping her go to the Healing Center and so on. I think that Sophie's perspective of Fitz was practically overshadowed throughout the series making him seem perfect despite his actions. Sophie finally saw the real person (elf) he was in Legacy when they 'broke up.' Yes, it's fine that Fitz has flaws, but if you want to be in an honest/good relationship, then you have to embrace each other's flaws, hopes, and fears. Sophie and Fitz both expected different things from each other. Sophie thought that Fitz would be fine with her giving him up for the good of the world, while Fitz thought that all Sophie need was him. If you've read Shatter (also great love triangle) the main character has a similar realization and they were decided that they were better off friends. Meanwhile, Keefe may have betrayed Sophie's trust, but it wasn't only to protect her, but for the good of the world. Sophie and Keefe both understand the burden/sacrifice/responsibility of it. 
      You said you wanted a counter argument so I'll try... (I'm a Sophitz shipper. but this is VERY well written!... so I'll try, but no guarantees it'll be any good)

      Sophie and Fitz never really expected things from each other. Sophie knew how Fitz would react about the match and such, which was why she was so stressed about telling him. Fitz also never really seemed to think that all Sophie needed was him, he just wanted her to take him into account because her match status affects them both (which is a little selfish, I'll admit, but everyone is, and Fitz's flaws don't necessarily make him a bad partner for Sophie, it just means they have room to grow and lots to teach each other).

      Additionally, maybe Sophie's attraction to Fitz began just based on appearance, but that changed and developed over time. Several times, she refers to him as caring and other such things over the course of the series. Additionally, I think it's worth acknowledging that he's the only person who could fully understand what she went through when she had to leave behind her human family, and he also proved to be a great shoulder to cry on (which is an important attribute- may elaborate later). Additionally, just because something isn't stated explicitly, doesn't mean it's nonexistent. There are lots of ways that show that Fitz is kind and understanding and more than a pretty face without Sophie explicitly stating it.

      I'm gonna elaborate on the shoulder to cry on thing a bit, because that's a little more personal. To me, someone being a shoulder to cry on is more than them just being there for you to cry into. It also shows that they're willing to be there for you, and proves that they can see you at your worst without it scaring them away. Over the course of the books, Sophie has cried on Fitz, vomited on Fitz, nearly fallen into Fitz, nearly died several times in front of Fitz, and several other moments where she has embarrassed herself or felt vulnerable in front of him. Through it all, he has proven that he's willing to be there for her (a shoulder to cry on), which, to me, is an important attribute. I'm not saying Keefe hasn't done many of these things, but he often also hides behind a sense of humor and uses that to help others, whereas Fitz is better with the whole here-for-you thing (example: when Sophie was about to almost die again and Keefe was joking around to try to help and then Fitz just gave her a hug. My heart melted).

      I've sorta run out of steam...... hope this is okay!

      I agree that Fitz has redeeming traits, but they're traits which everyone of Sophie's friends have. I know that he is charming and as a former Sofitz shipper, I also used to swoon every Sofitz moment, but I never realized one important thing during the time I was reading. Sophie and Fitz never trusted each other. Not truly. I mean they're cognates, but Sophie was never excited to reveal all of her secrets to him at all. And trusting someone doesn't mean tell them all of your secrets, it means you're willing to let the other person keep secrets of their own and still trust them with them. Sophie and Fitz do trust each other, but not truly since Fitz was nagging Sophie about her secret (crush) on him which meant he didn't trust Sophie with it. I get that he might be curious but if he did respect Sophie's decision he would have stopped after seeing how uncomfortable she got. Also, Keefe hides behind his humour. True, but he let's Sophie she through him and see his fears, and desires. Fitz is there for Sophie, but Sophie always misunderstood his desires. Sophie did know that FItz was going to be angry about the match thing, but she didn't really know why besides the "he's a Vacker" part, he was truly angry but because he thought Sophie would give up the good of the world for him and Sophie thought the opposite. Sophie has embarrassed herself in front of Keefe too, and he's always willing to joke around and help her feel less uncomfortable but he was always there for her too. Also, Sophie's been vulnerable/embarassed in front of all of her friends and they were willing to be the shoulder to cry on too but as friends and I think Fitz would fit in that category well too. Sophie's crush on him did begin on his looks, but it grew so much that she overlooked his bad decisions (the minor ones) because she thought he was perfect, at least in her eyes. She did see his anger issues, but that was always under stress which made Sophie wave those away too. Also, when they found out Forkle had a twin, it said that Fitz was yelling at Forkle, while Keefe chose to stay be Sophie and make sure she was okay. Lastly, Sophie see's Keefe's flaws and she embraces them and Keefe respects Sophie's decisions which is what should happen in a good relationship. I'm not saying Sophie and Fitz weren't happy when they were together for however brief that was, it was just never going to last is all I'm saying.

      Thx for counter arguing! It's always fun to debate for me, and your argument was well written too!

      All of your pints are truly well thought out and valid. BUT, Sophie didn't 'trust' Fitz as she did not want to tell him about her crush on him as she feared she would be rejected. And in Flashback, it said:'and di plenty of trust exercises, which were surprisingly easy after all the crush stuff came out' or something of the sort.
      Ok just a small addition here, but one could counterargue Project Sokeefes original argument by saying that Sophie and Keefe's relationship started with him being sarcastic and skipping class, which seems to also be a pretty shallow basis for a marrige or other relationship. both of those boys had a small thing that Sophie admired or enjoyed, and then it branched off into deeper, more personal relationships

      ^Sophie at that time just knew him as Fitz's friend. Also, she did describe him handsome, but she didn't describe it every other page. Also, Sophie got to know more of Keefe in Exile when she saw how he used humour to hide the fact that Alden, someone very close to him, was practically dying. I know that Sofitz started out as a relationship based on looks, but it didn't necessarily branch out as much as Sokeefe. They simply went through traumatic things, which btw all of Sophie's friends have with Sophie, and they became cognates, which actually just put Sophie in a position where she was practically forced to tell him. Also, Sophie and Keefe only became true friends in Exile when he let Sophie see how much it affected him and stuff. Sophie and Fitz are better off as friends since cognates don't have to be in a romantic relationship. Lastly, one can also argue how Sophie and Fitz did go through many things but Fitz didn't ever respect Sophie's decision as much as the others did. Like in Exile, Flashback, and Legacy.

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    • Kevino Casino wrote:
      wow do you really spend the time to write that much on a comment.

      Sadly yes...

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      SophitzVackster wrote:
      Project Sokeefe wrote:
      HermioneDizzneediAngelo wrote:
      Project Sokeefe wrote:
      So I used to ship Sofitz for six books and then I switched over. I don't know the exact moment or where in the book, I just remember I switched after/during Nightfall. MY heart used to flutter during Sofitz moments and I remember thinking Sophie and Fitz were perfect for each other, even after Exile. Then I saw that all Sophie saw Fitz was as an almost prince Vacker who had teal eyes and good looks which was the only reason she liked him. I agree that Fitz is caring and sweet, but it all BEGAN with his looks. Sophie may not have a crush on Keefe, but hers began with him helping her go to the Healing Center and so on. I think that Sophie's perspective of Fitz was practically overshadowed throughout the series making him seem perfect despite his actions. Sophie finally saw the real person (elf) he was in Legacy when they 'broke up.' Yes, it's fine that Fitz has flaws, but if you want to be in an honest/good relationship, then you have to embrace each other's flaws, hopes, and fears. Sophie and Fitz both expected different things from each other. Sophie thought that Fitz would be fine with her giving him up for the good of the world, while Fitz thought that all Sophie need was him. If you've read Shatter (also great love triangle) the main character has a similar realization and they were decided that they were better off friends. Meanwhile, Keefe may have betrayed Sophie's trust, but it wasn't only to protect her, but for the good of the world. Sophie and Keefe both understand the burden/sacrifice/responsibility of it. 
      You said you wanted a counter argument so I'll try... (I'm a Sophitz shipper. but this is VERY well written!... so I'll try, but no guarantees it'll be any good)

      Sophie and Fitz never really expected things from each other. Sophie knew how Fitz would react about the match and such, which was why she was so stressed about telling him. Fitz also never really seemed to think that all Sophie needed was him, he just wanted her to take him into account because her match status affects them both (which is a little selfish, I'll admit, but everyone is, and Fitz's flaws don't necessarily make him a bad partner for Sophie, it just means they have room to grow and lots to teach each other).

      Additionally, maybe Sophie's attraction to Fitz began just based on appearance, but that changed and developed over time. Several times, she refers to him as caring and other such things over the course of the series. Additionally, I think it's worth acknowledging that he's the only person who could fully understand what she went through when she had to leave behind her human family, and he also proved to be a great shoulder to cry on (which is an important attribute- may elaborate later). Additionally, just because something isn't stated explicitly, doesn't mean it's nonexistent. There are lots of ways that show that Fitz is kind and understanding and more than a pretty face without Sophie explicitly stating it.

      I'm gonna elaborate on the shoulder to cry on thing a bit, because that's a little more personal. To me, someone being a shoulder to cry on is more than them just being there for you to cry into. It also shows that they're willing to be there for you, and proves that they can see you at your worst without it scaring them away. Over the course of the books, Sophie has cried on Fitz, vomited on Fitz, nearly fallen into Fitz, nearly died several times in front of Fitz, and several other moments where she has embarrassed herself or felt vulnerable in front of him. Through it all, he has proven that he's willing to be there for her (a shoulder to cry on), which, to me, is an important attribute. I'm not saying Keefe hasn't done many of these things, but he often also hides behind a sense of humor and uses that to help others, whereas Fitz is better with the whole here-for-you thing (example: when Sophie was about to almost die again and Keefe was joking around to try to help and then Fitz just gave her a hug. My heart melted).

      I've sorta run out of steam...... hope this is okay!

      I agree that Fitz has redeeming traits, but they're traits which everyone of Sophie's friends have. I know that he is charming and as a former Sofitz shipper, I also used to swoon every Sofitz moment, but I never realized one important thing during the time I was reading. Sophie and Fitz never trusted each other. Not truly. I mean they're cognates, but Sophie was never excited to reveal all of her secrets to him at all. And trusting someone doesn't mean tell them all of your secrets, it means you're willing to let the other person keep secrets of their own and still trust them with them. Sophie and Fitz do trust each other, but not truly since Fitz was nagging Sophie about her secret (crush) on him which meant he didn't trust Sophie with it. I get that he might be curious but if he did respect Sophie's decision he would have stopped after seeing how uncomfortable she got. Also, Keefe hides behind his humour. True, but he let's Sophie she through him and see his fears, and desires. Fitz is there for Sophie, but Sophie always misunderstood his desires. Sophie did know that FItz was going to be angry about the match thing, but she didn't really know why besides the "he's a Vacker" part, he was truly angry but because he thought Sophie would give up the good of the world for him and Sophie thought the opposite. Sophie has embarrassed herself in front of Keefe too, and he's always willing to joke around and help her feel less uncomfortable but he was always there for her too. Also, Sophie's been vulnerable/embarassed in front of all of her friends and they were willing to be the shoulder to cry on too but as friends and I think Fitz would fit in that category well too. Sophie's crush on him did begin on his looks, but it grew so much that she overlooked his bad decisions (the minor ones) because she thought he was perfect, at least in her eyes. She did see his anger issues, but that was always under stress which made Sophie wave those away too. Also, when they found out Forkle had a twin, it said that Fitz was yelling at Forkle, while Keefe chose to stay be Sophie and make sure she was okay. Lastly, Sophie see's Keefe's flaws and she embraces them and Keefe respects Sophie's decisions which is what should happen in a good relationship. I'm not saying Sophie and Fitz weren't happy when they were together for however brief that was, it was just never going to last is all I'm saying.

      Thx for counter arguing! It's always fun to debate for me, and your argument was well written too!

      All of your pints are truly well thought out and valid. BUT, Sophie didn't 'trust' Fitz as she did not want to tell him about her crush on him as she feared she would be rejected. And in Flashback, it said:'and di plenty of trust exercises, which were surprisingly easy after all the crush stuff came out' or something of the sort.
      That is true, but later on she didn't trust him with her biological mom's personality or other things like at first she didn't want to tell him about Alvar then she thought he deserved to know. 

      well she didnt tell anyone

      and she didnt tell keefe stuff abt lady gisela too

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    • SophitzVackster wrote:
      Project Sokeefe wrote:
      SophitzVackster wrote:
      Project Sokeefe wrote:
      HermioneDizzneediAngelo wrote:
      Project Sokeefe wrote:
      So I used to ship Sofitz for six books and then I switched over. I don't know the exact moment or where in the book, I just remember I switched after/during Nightfall. MY heart used to flutter during Sofitz moments and I remember thinking Sophie and Fitz were perfect for each other, even after Exile. Then I saw that all Sophie saw Fitz was as an almost prince Vacker who had teal eyes and good looks which was the only reason she liked him. I agree that Fitz is caring and sweet, but it all BEGAN with his looks. Sophie may not have a crush on Keefe, but hers began with him helping her go to the Healing Center and so on. I think that Sophie's perspective of Fitz was practically overshadowed throughout the series making him seem perfect despite his actions. Sophie finally saw the real person (elf) he was in Legacy when they 'broke up.' Yes, it's fine that Fitz has flaws, but if you want to be in an honest/good relationship, then you have to embrace each other's flaws, hopes, and fears. Sophie and Fitz both expected different things from each other. Sophie thought that Fitz would be fine with her giving him up for the good of the world, while Fitz thought that all Sophie need was him. If you've read Shatter (also great love triangle) the main character has a similar realization and they were decided that they were better off friends. Meanwhile, Keefe may have betrayed Sophie's trust, but it wasn't only to protect her, but for the good of the world. Sophie and Keefe both understand the burden/sacrifice/responsibility of it. 
      You said you wanted a counter argument so I'll try... (I'm a Sophitz shipper. but this is VERY well written!... so I'll try, but no guarantees it'll be any good)

      Sophie and Fitz never really expected things from each other. Sophie knew how Fitz would react about the match and such, which was why she was so stressed about telling him. Fitz also never really seemed to think that all Sophie needed was him, he just wanted her to take him into account because her match status affects them both (which is a little selfish, I'll admit, but everyone is, and Fitz's flaws don't necessarily make him a bad partner for Sophie, it just means they have room to grow and lots to teach each other).

      Additionally, maybe Sophie's attraction to Fitz began just based on appearance, but that changed and developed over time. Several times, she refers to him as caring and other such things over the course of the series. Additionally, I think it's worth acknowledging that he's the only person who could fully understand what she went through when she had to leave behind her human family, and he also proved to be a great shoulder to cry on (which is an important attribute- may elaborate later). Additionally, just because something isn't stated explicitly, doesn't mean it's nonexistent. There are lots of ways that show that Fitz is kind and understanding and more than a pretty face without Sophie explicitly stating it.

      I'm gonna elaborate on the shoulder to cry on thing a bit, because that's a little more personal. To me, someone being a shoulder to cry on is more than them just being there for you to cry into. It also shows that they're willing to be there for you, and proves that they can see you at your worst without it scaring them away. Over the course of the books, Sophie has cried on Fitz, vomited on Fitz, nearly fallen into Fitz, nearly died several times in front of Fitz, and several other moments where she has embarrassed herself or felt vulnerable in front of him. Through it all, he has proven that he's willing to be there for her (a shoulder to cry on), which, to me, is an important attribute. I'm not saying Keefe hasn't done many of these things, but he often also hides behind a sense of humor and uses that to help others, whereas Fitz is better with the whole here-for-you thing (example: when Sophie was about to almost die again and Keefe was joking around to try to help and then Fitz just gave her a hug. My heart melted).

      I've sorta run out of steam...... hope this is okay!

      I agree that Fitz has redeeming traits, but they're traits which everyone of Sophie's friends have. I know that he is charming and as a former Sofitz shipper, I also used to swoon every Sofitz moment, but I never realized one important thing during the time I was reading. Sophie and Fitz never trusted each other. Not truly. I mean they're cognates, but Sophie was never excited to reveal all of her secrets to him at all. And trusting someone doesn't mean tell them all of your secrets, it means you're willing to let the other person keep secrets of their own and still trust them with them. Sophie and Fitz do trust each other, but not truly since Fitz was nagging Sophie about her secret (crush) on him which meant he didn't trust Sophie with it. I get that he might be curious but if he did respect Sophie's decision he would have stopped after seeing how uncomfortable she got. Also, Keefe hides behind his humour. True, but he let's Sophie she through him and see his fears, and desires. Fitz is there for Sophie, but Sophie always misunderstood his desires. Sophie did know that FItz was going to be angry about the match thing, but she didn't really know why besides the "he's a Vacker" part, he was truly angry but because he thought Sophie would give up the good of the world for him and Sophie thought the opposite. Sophie has embarrassed herself in front of Keefe too, and he's always willing to joke around and help her feel less uncomfortable but he was always there for her too. Also, Sophie's been vulnerable/embarassed in front of all of her friends and they were willing to be the shoulder to cry on too but as friends and I think Fitz would fit in that category well too. Sophie's crush on him did begin on his looks, but it grew so much that she overlooked his bad decisions (the minor ones) because she thought he was perfect, at least in her eyes. She did see his anger issues, but that was always under stress which made Sophie wave those away too. Also, when they found out Forkle had a twin, it said that Fitz was yelling at Forkle, while Keefe chose to stay be Sophie and make sure she was okay. Lastly, Sophie see's Keefe's flaws and she embraces them and Keefe respects Sophie's decisions which is what should happen in a good relationship. I'm not saying Sophie and Fitz weren't happy when they were together for however brief that was, it was just never going to last is all I'm saying.

      Thx for counter arguing! It's always fun to debate for me, and your argument was well written too!

      All of your pints are truly well thought out and valid. BUT, Sophie didn't 'trust' Fitz as she did not want to tell him about her crush on him as she feared she would be rejected. And in Flashback, it said:'and di plenty of trust exercises, which were surprisingly easy after all the crush stuff came out' or something of the sort.
      That is true, but later on she didn't trust him with her biological mom's personality or other things like at first she didn't want to tell him about Alvar then she thought he deserved to know. 
      well she didnt tell anyone

      and she didnt tell keefe stuff abt lady gisela too

      Yes but Keefe didn't ask her about it and Keefe just wanted to know the part about him mom which he had to know at that time.

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    • fitz asked sophie abt it COZ HE WANTED THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO B SECURE

      and if she couldnt tell him, well, he would break off as it would be easier breaking up earlier than waiting

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    • SophitzVackster wrote:
      Fitz asked Sophie abt it COZ HE WANTED THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO B SECURE

      and if she couldn't tell him, well, he would break off as it would be easier breaking up earlier than waiting

      I get that, but if Fitz truly loved Sophie, he would step back, and even if it made their relationship insecure, he'd still understand and know that Sophie loves him. Keefe was willing to step back for such a long time, but he trusts that when the time comes Sophie will love him. 

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    • he truly loved sophie which was why he wanted her to find out who her parents were

      so that they could start srsly dating

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      SophitzVackster wrote:
      Fitz asked Sophie abt it COZ HE WANTED THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO B SECURE

      and if she couldn't tell him, well, he would break off as it would be easier breaking up earlier than waiting

      I get that, but if Fitz truly loved Sophie, he would step back, and even if it made their relationship insecure, he'd still understand and know that Sophie loves him. Keefe was willing to step back for such a long time, but he trusts that when the time comes Sophie will love him. 

      but i agree with ur point

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    • SophitzVackster wrote:
      he truly loved Sophie which was why he wanted her to find out who her parents were

      so that they could start srsly dating

      Though he should've respected her decision at the same time. It's not like they can live practically forever, right? *note the sarcasm*

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    • HAHAHAHAHAHA

      well, i agree he could've been more 'respecting boundaries kinda person', but keefe also made alot of jokes that werent actually funny, ocassionally at Sophie's expense

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    • SophitzVackster wrote:
      HAHAHAHAHAHA

      well, i agree he could've been more 'respecting boundaries kinda person', but keefe also made alot of jokes that werent actually funny, ocassionally at Sophie's expense

      I agree that Keefe jokes around a lot but even if they're bad jokes, Sophie's usually distracted from the part where she almost died, or is about to probably almost die. And Keefe usually apologizes over the bad jokes like in Flashback when they were official. 

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:

      SophitzVackster wrote:
      HAHAHAHAHAHA

      well, i agree he could've been more 'respecting boundaries kinda person', but keefe also made alot of jokes that werent actually funny, ocassionally at Sophie's expense

      I agree that Keefe jokes around a lot but even if they're bad jokes, Sophie's usually distracted from the part where she almost died, or is about to probably almost die. And Keefe usually apologizes over the bad jokes like in Flashback when they were official. 

      ^^^Yeah I agree

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    • SophitzVackster wrote:
      he truly loved sophie which was why he wanted her to find out who her parents were

      so that they could start srsly dating

      Yes but it really wasn't his choice no matter how much he may have loved her it gives him no right to bully Sophie into telling him. They are her​​​​​​​ parent(s) it will be her decision when she tells him or if she tells anyone at all (the latter being a more reasonable deduction given her character). It's not about Sophitz anymore, it's a matter of national security (i've always wanted to say that:). The Neverseen are trying to take down the council and what better way to do that then to expose that one of the most important councillors broken her oath as a councillor and had a child. Sophie's reaction to not tell Fitz is justifiable as there is absolutely nothing he could do with the information anyway since telling the matchmakers would only cause chaos. 

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    • ^I agree, also XD to the "matter of national security" or maybe elvin security...idk.

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    • ^ Yea that would probably be more accurate:D

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    • Sophie's reaction was justifiable, but I think Fitz's was as well. Think about it: Fitz has shown that he uses anger as a coping mechansim. It's not exactly the best coping mechanism, but it also isn't one that you can see and then describe him as evil or a bad person because it's just how he's taught himself to cope. He's also shown that Alvar is a tough subject for him, because, as we learn during one of their cognate exercises, Fitz really looked up to Alvar (maybe even more so than his father). So when he finds out that Sophie and Keefe let Alvar go, he's understandably mad. And Sophie just brushes it off, hits him with another big piece of tough to handle information, and expects him to NOT react badly. I do think, though, that if Sophie and Fitz are given a chance to talk about it when tempers aren't as high (because Sophie wasn't really in the right state of mind for that conversation and neither was Fitz), they'll be able to come to an understanding. In the first few books, Sophie is scorned by their society and, by default, her friends are too. But Fitz reassures her that what others think won't deter him from being her friend. I think that, if he's given time to process and talk it out when he's not quite as upset, he will react positively. After all, if his family supports him and if he has people like Keefe, Dex, and Sophie to help him figure it out, I think he will ultimately come to the same conclusion: if he's willing to sacrifice his reputation for their friendship, he'd most likely be willing to do the same for them as more than friends.

      If that doesn't happen, I'm going to be mad at Shannon for portraying Fitz in a way that contradicts who he's been in the past.

      Let's also keep in mind that they're TEENAGERS and have infinite lifespans (provided no one dies, of course.....). Because honestly? As much as I want to see Sophitz (or Sokeefe, I'm very on the fence and could hardly care less about the love triangle at this point) happen, I don't think any of them are in a position, mentally or otherwise, where they're ready to date.

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    • yeah...

      i agree. i kind of think sophies a drama queen...

      and immature, like OHMYGOSHHE'SGOINGTOKISSME

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    • ^^I agree that they should talk it out though I think Fitz was in his right mind since Sophie ignored him so much so he probably had a lot of time to think it through, ya know, the matchmaking stuff. Also, we forget that Sophie was the one who has to deal with the unmatchable and we let Alvar go stuff. Even though Alvar is a tough subject for Fitz, I think that he should've cut Sophie some slack since she also got hit with the fact that she can never date anyone unless they're willing to be a bad match with her. Let's also not forget that Sophie has confidence problems and living with the humans makes her think that no one will truly love her which is why she basically thinks that she can't ever have a boyfriend, at least not in the near future. Lastly, I agree that Shannon took the 'anger mechanism' think too far, I liked Fitz when he was caring, but even if he was, I'd still think Fitz is more of a friend than boyfriend. To your last point, I agree that none of them are in the right mental mind, but honestly, the love triangle has gone to far in for Shannon to leave it hanging. If she does, however, then she'll probably have to make another .5 book once the main series is over with just Sophie choosing someone when she's older. 

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    • HurricanetheSeaWing234 wrote:
      yeah...

      i agree. i kind of think sophies a drama queen...

      and immature, like OHMYGOSHHE'SGOINGTOKISSME

      Definitely, but let's keep in mind it's her first kiss, I was like that too when I had my first kiss. Also, Sophie has confidence problems and living with the humans makes her automatically think that no one loves her which is why she was even more surprised.

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      HurricanetheSeaWing234 wrote:
      yeah...

      i agree. i kind of think sophies a drama queen...

      and immature, like OHMYGOSHHE'SGOINGTOKISSME

      Definitely, but let's keep in mind it's her first kiss, I was like that too when I had my first kiss. Also, Sophie has confidence problems and living with the humans makes her automatically think that no one loves her which is why she was even more surprised.

      i just don't really like it when its like that in books...

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    • ^same but I think Shannon just wanted to make it seem realistic since then other people would be like, it's her first kiss and she's just going through it calmly.

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    • true true

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    • Project Sokeefe wrote:
      ^^I agree that they should talk it out though I think Fitz was in his right mind since Sophie ignored him so much so he probably had a lot of time to think it through, ya know, the matchmaking stuff. Also, we forget that Sophie was the one who has to deal with the unmatchable and we let Alvar go stuff. Even though Alvar is a tough subject for Fitz, I think that he should've cut Sophie some slack since she also got hit with the fact that she can never date anyone unless they're willing to be a bad match with her. Let's also not forget that Sophie has confidence problems and living with the humans makes her think that no one will truly love her which is why she basically thinks that she can't ever have a boyfriend, at least not in the near future. Lastly, I agree that Shannon took the 'anger mechanism' think too far, I liked Fitz when he was caring, but even if he was, I'd still think Fitz is more of a friend than boyfriend. To your last point, I agree that none of them are in the right mental mind, but honestly, the love triangle has gone to far in for Shannon to leave it hanging. If she does, however, then she'll probably have to make another .5 book once the main series is over with just Sophie choosing someone when she's older. 

      You made some really good points, but I feel like we're also expecting too much from Fitz. He should've cut Sophie some slack, but he also just wasn't in a position to do so. We've learned over the course of the series that Fitz does not deal with difficult situations very well. I think that they both just need a little space and the time to talk. I'm also glad that they ended Legacy as friends, to be honest. With everything going on in life, Sophie made the right choice to step back and worry about her personal life later, and Fitz showed that he could support her.

      Not gonna lie, it's a little hard to defend my ship when it's glaringly obvious that Sokeefe is probably going to happen, so this is a little feeble...

      Also, you mentioned that you preferred Sophie and Fitz as friends. Honestly, I really like Keefe and Sophie as friends. The Foster-Keefe friendship is precious, and I don't want to lose that (because sometimes romance does not-so-good things to friendships). I guess it is also sort of a matter of more personal preferences and views as well

      Sophie has confidence problems, Keefe has self-worth problems, Fitz has anger problems and too-high expectations that no one could ever live up to. None of them are ready to date, and I'd like to see them take care of themselves and all be there for one another as friends before they even consider being romantically involved. Sadly, this is unlikely, because (as you mentioned) the love triangle has gone so far that you CAN'T leave it unresolved come the end of the story.

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    • SophitzVackster wrote:
      he truly loved sophie which was why he wanted her to find out who her parents were

      so that they could start srsly dating

      Why did he have to find out who her parents were before they started to date? Someone who truly cares about you should want to be with you no matter what. Fitz likes Sophie conditionally and that is not healthy at all.

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    • He doesn't like her conditionally, he just wants to b a match aas he doesn't want to b part of a scandal

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    • SophitzVackster wrote: He doesn't like her conditionally, he just wants to b a match aas he doesn't want to b part of a scandal

      Still, if he really loved her that much he wouldn’t care about his image or being part of a scandal. Being a good or bad match shouldn’t matter. I think that Fitz may not be that bad, but he has grown up in “royalty” for all his life so I think(just my opinion) that sometimes Fitz expects to get what he wants. I mean, he could pretty much have any girl at school, he had a good family(besides Alvar of course) and he’s used to always being a good image. At this point I think that Fitz cares more about his family’s image than Sophie(which isn’t necessarily a bad thing) but this just won’t work with her. Fitz needs to exept that this time he won’t get what he wants and that instead of yelling at her he should try to support her. Sophie is VERY different than all the other elves, so of course being with her isn’t going to be traditional. Fitz needs to understand this if he ever wants to be the one with Sophie.

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    • And I know some people think that we expect too much from Fitz, but this is what it takes to be with Sophie. If he can’t do this, then their relationship won’t work out

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    • So I posted this on the SOkeefe page and here it is!:

      So...here's another (personal) reason why I ship Sokeefe. 

      Okay, this is going to be awkward to write, but when I moved to the state I am now, I met this boy...I know what you're all thinking, does he look cute? Is he like Fitz or Keefe? So I'm just going to label him as person A for now but he was the person all the girl crowded around the table during lunch for and stuff like that and he kinda looks like Fitz? Actually no, he has black hair but other than that basically Fitz. He doesn't have anger issues (not that I know of) and he is sweet and caring and his family has "old money" as you would call it so he is kind of pressured to date someone..respectful (not rich but someone that wouldn't spoil his family's legacy*gags at the word*) . In other words I did have a crush on him. My friend was tired of me acting like Marinette from Miraculous (don't worry I didn't stalk him and I could kinda talk normally around him I just kept rambling like I'm doing now) and she told him that I had a crush on him. He was surprisingly where kind afterwards even though he friend zoned me and I was just glad I got that over with since it was like setting yourself free and not having to worry about looking stupid anymore. Okay fine, that's not what happend we did date for a while (no we didn't kiss we were always interrupted *that sounds strangely familiar to the books*) but then we just decided to be friends because I couldn't handle the pressure of being perfect because that's what he and his family wanted. Once our relationship ended, I was not sad, angry, hurt or anything like that but then I noticed someone else, cue the other person who's exactly like Keefe (though his hair is light brown and he has green eyes). So person B and I were...rivals, yes, rivals, I'll explain. So I am NOT like Sophie, I mean I know if someone has a crush on me, and my rival definitely didn't and I was not a Mary Sue or a goody goody. I do a bunch of pranks but never get caught since unlike Keefe I'm that person you'll never suspect *looks over shoulder and then laughs like an evil maniac.* This other kid was like Keefe but he was the valedictorian and I was second to him so yeah, you can start to connect the dots...Anyways, like in any YA realistic book you read, I got caught on one prank and the teacher thought we were doing it together so the principal paired us to do some work for fundraiser and of course, detention. I got to see more of person B and I saw that he had a Keefe like backstory, he was emotionally abused, he was pressured to be #1 at all times and once I scored higher than him which is why he didn't like me. I told him more about myself how I've been moving around my entire life and how I've never trusted anyone because I never know if they're trustworthy since I once I had a friend who told my secrets to the entire school *humiliating, right?* And yeah, I reallized he did like me, and then we did start dating. Guess what, he was Person A's best friend *I know, when I reread the series I was laughing.* I did not have a love triangle but I did realize how the kind and caring person sometimes isn't the one for you even if they seem perfect, which is another personal reason why I ship Sokeefe. This isn't the full story of course, if you have questions just ask me on my message wall, and I'll try to answer them. 

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    • Wow...this thread keeps getting buried underneath all of my other notifications. Is anyone on here that wants to debate?....

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