Talk:Sophie and Fitz/@comment-24.115.246.196-20190202202527

This NOT my argument it is BlackSwanSRM's counter to something, but it was down in the comments and I wasn't sure if you guys would see it or not  so I decided to repost it up here in case you guys had any thoughts or counters or something for it, hopefully you don't mind. First problem- Neverseen is in the past in the same way Fitz's behavior from Exile is in the past. Characters change. And I think we can probably (maybe) agree that the person who has had the most character change and development is Keefe. We see in Nightfall how he promises to stop taking over things- "Not the hero. Not the one taking charge of everything. A friend." And has he stuck to that promise? Yes. In Flashback, he goes through a lot of things (in the back ground- finding out the caches are fake, finding more awful and washed memories, Fitzphie, Fitz's biting remarks, his best friends almost dying) and he never does anything reckless. Sophie even assumes he's being reckless, and when she connects telepathically to him, he's like "Chill, Foster, I'm done with that, I'm at Tiergans" (extreme paraphrase, lol!). He's learning how to be responsible, and so far, he's doing a great job of it. I think we should stop thinking of him as the guy he was in Neverseen, and start thinking of him as the guy he's becoming in Flashback.

Second problem- The argument assumes that Keefe went to the Neverseen "for Sophie". I don't blame you for this, we Keefosters often say this, probably because it sounds "cute". But when we say this, not only is it not true, as you've shown it hurts our argument. But here's the thing. Keefe didn't got to the Neverseen for Sophie. He went to the Neverseen for answers about his past, to save his mom, and for the good of the world. Quote, Tiergan, page 667, Neverseen- "I think he's desperate for answers we cannot give him." Sophie, page 660, Neverseen- "There are better ways to save your mom. Lets get out of here and we'll figure it out together." The book never says that he went to the Neverseen "for Sophie". I think the best evidence for this is is this convesation in Lodestar, pages 568-570-

(I'm omitting dialogue tags)

(Keefe) "That's what I'm trying to tell you. There's so much more to do."

(Sophie) "Then do it with us."

(Keefe) "I know what matters, Foster. And that's all that matters."

(He grabbed the alluveterre crystal. A few sentences later-)

(Sophie) "And I don't know if I can forgive this one."

(Keefe) "Yeah...I can feel that. And if you needed proof that I'm not doing this for me- that's it, okay?"

"I'm sorry," "You have no idea how much. I'm also guessing this means no more check-ins. So please, please be careful. Keep your bodyguards close and know that I will end this."

He's not doing it for Sophie. He sacrifices his relationship with Sophie for it. He's doing it to take down the Neverseen, for the entire world. He's a part of the story, whether he likes it or not, and he decides to use that. Quote, Lodestar, page 364-

"Whatever's on the other side of that door- whatever my mom planned- she made me a part of it. And I have to believe that means I can stop it."

Even Fitz understands-

"I slipped past (sophie's) her blocking just to make sure nothing weird was happening and..I couldn't stop watching (Keefe's memory). The whole time I kept asking myself how I'd feel if I'd remembered something like that- what I'd do if I knew I was part of something that feels so ominous. And I'm pretty sure the answer is, I'd do whatever I had to do to stop it." (page 365, Lodestar.)

What Keefe did was not because of some obsession with Sophie. It was not because he turned evil. It was because he was a part of his mom's plan, and he decided he was going to use that against her. He knew he was stuck with a role in the game. So he decided to use that- which I respect. I ESPECIALLY respect that he was willing to sacrifice everything- his respect, his friend's love and loyalty, his life even- to take down the organization. It was reckless, and stupid, but his heart with in the right place- it was selfless.

Third- Remember that when you judge Sophie and Keefe's relationship in Neverseen, you're judging their relationship in BOOK FOUR. They've grown, just like Fitz and Sophie have grown. Their relationship then is not an indicator of their relationship now. Remember, even Fitz is jealous of their trust in Flashback. Imagine if I judged Fitz based off of his actions in Exile- that would be wrong, wouldn't it? I can judge him based off his current actions in Flashback PAIRED WITH his actions in Exile, but say, in Lodestar, I couldn't say Fitz had anger issues based on Exile because he seemed like he'd changed. (though, I personally believe he is relapsing into that anger some now.) I think we should judge Keefe the same way.

Lastly, I want to respond to this-

"This is kinda unrelated, but I know someone is probably going to bring this up so I think Fitz trying to hurt his brother isn't just anger. It's guilt as well. Guilt that he doesn't know what to do with, or how to handle it or why it's still there after all this time. He knows that none of this would've happened if he'd noticed what his brother was up to. And the source of all this guilt, all this shame is right in front of him....what else do you expect him to do? He's trying to make his mistakes right, fix the mistakes he thinks he made."

-by doing this-

"This is kinda unrelated, but I know someone is probably going to bring this up so I think Keefe joining the Neverseen isn't just recklessness. It's guilt as well. Guilt that he doesn't know what to do with, or how to handle it or why it's still there after all this time. He knows that none of this would've happened if he'd noticed what his mother was up to (planning). And the source of all this guilt, all this shame is right in front of him....what else do you expect him to do? He's trying to make his mistakes right, fix the mistakes he thinks he made."