Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-146.135.19.252-20181116034422/@comment-37530514-20181127201507

Backyard Windchimes, to your argument in response to @FeatherMist234-

(I'm just going to say, i respect your arguments. A LOT. Thank you for being able to talk about this from an un-emotional point of view- It's SO refreshing. These are the type of conversations I want to have. It's great- seriously, thank you!!)

So first, I have to say, I do agree that Keefe might be a bit obsessed with Sophie. That I can agree with. But I don't agree with everything you said, and I think I have valid proofs to counter your points, so i am going to.

So first you said-

"When I mentioned Keefe's lack of character flaws, i said something about the whole "Sophie, feel free to hate me" thing. But think about it. He did the things he did with the Neverseen to protect Sophie, and he still feels horrible about it. Heck, he was fully prepared for Sophie hate when he visisted her in the Healing Center and he wasn't even there. His mother wasn't there either. Yet he's constantly afraid she'll leave him. People point out how uptight Sophie is around Fitz, but what about Keefe around Sophie? Yeah, they have their easy teasing, but Sophie and Fitz have their easy moments as well."

So in response to that part, I would disagree. Yes, Keefe has been a little more uptight around her recently. But to be honest, he has good reason. First of all, I only see it right AFTER the whole Fitz-Sophie thing. He's a little awkward then, but wouldn't anyone be? And then by the end, and the fight, we see Keefe there for Sophie as always. I can provide quotes if needed.

But I think you're talking about the fact that he's always worried Sophie is going to hate him. But lets think about it....He does have good reason to assume that. Because pretty much most of the characters he's close to or who's judgement effects him have "hated" him, except Sophie.

Fitz was his best friend. And then Fitz went through a time in Lodestar when he was ANGRY at Keefe and wanted nothing to do with him- So angry he wouldn't even talk about him. And their friendship still hasn't been mended from that. Grady and Tiergan were angry. His father was angry. Tam was angry and wanted nothing to do with him. And Keefe grew up in a family where if he failed, he was hated. And a disappointment. And his dad wanted nothing to do with him. And so I don't blame Keefe for thinking that eventually everyone who is there for him is going to be disappointed in and abandon him, because that's what's happened to him every time. He's seen people he's close to before "hate" him. So of course he's going to think it's only a matter of time before that happens again, and he doesn't want to be hurt when she pushes him away, so he prepares himself for it. He thinks it's inevitable.

I think when Keefe says "It's okay if you hate me", what he really means is "I understand if you reject me."

And then lets think about Keefe and Sophie's relationship. Keefe is only uptight around her when he's afraid she's going to hate him. But when she's the one in trouble, he drops all those feelings and is there to be normal Keefe. Think about Krakie. (Not to mention, unlike Fitz, who whenever he's going through anything, is consumed in himself when Sophie needs him. But that's another discussion.)

"Now let's talk about the end of the book, with Tam getting kidnapped by Lady Gisela. This time, Keefe was there, it was his mother that took Tam, and he couldn't stop him from going. And who's the only person he cares about? Sophie. Not Linh, who just lost her twin brother, when it was Keefe's mom that took him. He doesn't apologize at all. The only time he's apologized to anyone else about joining the Neverseen in the first place was once in Nightfall. But how may times has he apologized to Sophie? Hundreds."

Well first of all. It sounds really awful when you say "the first time was Nightfall". But then you think about that he really only got back from the Neverseen in Nightfall. That was the first time he COULD apologize.

Second, he definitely hasn't apologized to Sophie hundreds of times. (But I think you know that LOL!)

Third, I really don't even think he's apologized to her all that much. He apologized once, hugely, in Nightfall. And maybe a few other times. But really, it's him saying "It's okay if you hate me".

Fourth, and most importantly.... This IS Sophie's point of view. When someone apologizes to someone, they don't really do it in front of people. Keefe wouldn't just go up to Tam and go "I'm sorry, dude" and then move on to Biana and just go in a circle. And really, they are always in a group!!! It's even mentioned that the Vackers don't see the Songs much, etc. And when they're not in a group, Sophie isn't with them. SO OF COURSE all the apologies we are going to see are going to be to the group, or to Sophie. Not to mention....'''The entire group is closer to Sophie than they are to each other. '''Keefe included. Keefe isn't close to Tam. Or Linh. Or Biana really, and she wasn't as directly hurt as Fitz and Sophie. Fitz is at a stage where he's still bitter toward Keefe. Dex is kind of a loner....(But honestly, I feel like Keefe would apologize to him if they had an opportunity to.) So who's Keefe primarily going to lean on and apologize to? SOPHIE! Not to mention she's the main character!

As for Linh, I need to look back into Flashback. But if I remember correctly, Linh isn't at the scene. I don't think Keefe is even there when the news about Tam is broken to her. So how could he apologize? Also, I don't even think Keefe and Linh have really interacted all that much. They're not close. Keefe wasn't at Exilium. I think the only real time was saving Atlantis. So that...would be hard. Especially if you can only communicate by PHONE CALL/FACETIME- I wouldn't want to call someone I hardly know! The awkwardness! Not to mention, if he does, we aren't going to see it, unless he apologizes in the group. But if he apologizes any other time, we won't see it. If he apologizes while they are in a group, maybe not even then we'll see it. And I think Keefe is getting over taking the balme for his mom. Now he's blaming himslef for his mistakes in Lodestar, not so much his mom. So honestly he doen't even need to apologize to Linh- He didn't take her brother!

"He also gave up his best friend for her. She tore apart Keefe and Fitz's friendship. Yeah, you could agrue that the breaking point was Keefe joining the Neverseen, but it wouldn't have broken if jealousy over Sophie hadn't stretched it to its limit."

OK. If the point is that jealousy over Sophie stretched it to it's limit (which I completely agree with), then how is that Keefe's fault? He literally wasn't even doing anything except being there for Sophie. That's FITZ ​​​. Fitz lets himself be bitter over that, when Keefe is like "You guys are perfect for each other". I think if Keefe could, he'd mend the friendship. He asks Sophie how Fitz is in Flashback instead of going to Fitz, because he knows Fitz doesn't want to talk to him. But KEEFE still cares to ask.

To conclude, Keefe may be obsessed with Sophie. Maybe that's true. But I don't blame him. Sophie is ALL HE HAS- besides Ro- and to be honest, he's doing pretty good right now, telling Fitz and Sophie they're perfect and supporting her and taking a step back. Because really, he is taking a step back.

I'm sorry, I realize this sounds kind of like I'm attacking you- But I think you understand that it's not you, just your argument. I would love a counter :)