Talk:Keefe and Sophie/@comment-39545582-20190521231027/@comment-66.212.65.6-20190522000434

=Sophie + Keefe: Arguments= These are NOT my arguments-these are fellow Sokeefe shippers from another wiki, who I give all my undebeted credit to. Here you go:


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[show]===Some1New's Arguments=== I ship Sokeefe. I think Sophie and Keefe will end up together. Keefe needs Sophie. Does Fitz need Sophie? No. He has his family and friends. Who does Keefe have? No one. I remember reading this in Neverseen page 505 after Fitz said he's been in Keefe's situation:

"Have you? Because I seem to remember you having a bummer few weeks and then everything went back to perfect Vack er-land. So where's my perfect fix? Why does it just keep spiraling and spiraling and spiraling?" I think Sophie will be Keefe's happy ending. He needs something in his life to go right. To go his way.

Only Sophie has kept Keefe from doing really stupid things. And most of the stupid things he's done are for Sophie.

Sure, maybe for the first 2 books Sophie didn't really like Keefe. But those feelings start to change in Everblaze. And in Neverseen, Sophie and Keefe grow even closer. He waits for her. He joined the Neverseen for her. He listens only to her. We already know Keefe likes her. But what about Sophie?

Sophie is starting to like Keefe. Like when he read her emotions in Lodestar while being enhanced by her. He felt the emotions that were from her heart. In her head, she thinks he has a crush on Fitz which used to be based only on his looks. In her heart though, she likes Keefe. That's why he wouldn't tell her what the emotions he felt in her heart were. Sophie does get jealous of other girls being with Keefe. In Nightfall, there are plenty of moments like that. Sophie doesn't know why she gets jealous because she doesn't know her heart emotions. Sophie cares for Keefe and worries about him. Sophie and Keefe only grow closer and closer each book. I think Sophie now likes Keefe and Fitz equally after Nightfall. I hope she chooses correctly. Heck, she doesn't even have to choose. I mean, this is my not-so-humble opinion. Not SWM's. (I think I repeated myself multiple times lol)

Not reread or edited, and I still got more to say

BTW, I took a long time writing this so I had to write it on something else.

~ Some1New

ChasteliaC's Arguments
I honestly love this ship. It's one of the purest ships (That I believe will be canon, but I still believe in you Fitz!) in this whole series by far. I also love what they're relationship is being built on. It's being on built trust, friendship, happiness, shared anger, remorse, sadness and a lot more mushy feelings that I don't feel like listing. (Not finished here by the way)

-ChasteliaC

Vee's Arguments
Why do we ship Keefe and Sophie? Because of their chemistry. They have a spark thats not there because Keefe was asked to be friends with her. In book 1, he could've walked away from her being lost. But no,he took her to Elwin. He stayed with her. In book 2, she trusted him to go to the Black Swan. Reminder: This was still when they didnt know if they were good or bad. In book 3, he was there for her. All through book 3, who knew about the notes? Sandor and... you got it. Keefe. She trusts him. Not because of his ability, but because of who he is. In book 4, their relationship was a bit messy. But every great relationship needs to be messy. A ship that both parties can break up with each other and forget is not a ship I can get behind. I get behind a ship thats messy and amazing and they cant break up since they have been through everything together and would sacrifice the world for each other. Thats a ship I can get behind. Thats a ship I can ship with all my heart. Thats a ship that can win.

~Vee

You have to make it Sokeefe. Throughout the entire series, Sophie has been lovin that guys hair. Anyone who remembers Exile should remember the Team Foster-Keefe with the Goblin mascot. And Keefe has some serious crushes on Sophie. At the end of Lodestar, it becomes clearer then ever when he interrupts the moment Fitz and Sophie are about to kiss. Sokeefe is destiny. We look at Sokeefe, and it's truly something. Sophitz? Might as well be Sodex then Sophitz (Even though it can't be Sodex). It's clear Fitz likes Lihn. Fihn, or Litz, or whatever you want to call it. It will be Fitz and Linh, Sophie and Keefe, and Dex and Biana. The destiny has already been set out by Shannon Messenger.

~Sokeefe

ThoseWhoWanderAreNotLost's Arguments
I'm in love with this ship. I'm in love with lots of ships in general. I just think that Sokeefe would match the ideals this book was created with. "THOSE WHO WANDER ARE NOT LOST." — WANDERLING WOODS{| cellspacing="50"
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ADragonDreaming881 's Arguments
I'm actually very happy about the whole matchmaking thing at the end of flashback. My reasoning is that it makes her much more likely to end up with Keefe. Hear me out.

Fitz wanted Sophie to register for the match because he was scared of them being scorned. They didn't tell anyone things had changed, and weren't planning on it until she had registered. Can't you see Fitz awkwardly saying they should wait to date until the matchmaking thing gets resolved, pretending it will all be fixed soon, and hurting Sophie's feelings badly, possibly even stopping their romantic relationship in its' tracks? Keefe wouldn't care one bit about being a 'bad match'. He'd probably even like it - another way to shock and horrify his father, wheras Fitz would be terrified of making his family's repuation even worse. And if Fitz is mean about it, Keefe will definitely be there for her, possibly even tell Fitz off if he pushes her away for it.

Either way, Keefe has no reason to react negatively, while Fitz is much more likely to react negatively than even neutrally, and his reaction would likely hurt her feelings. Frankly, I can't wait for his reaction, and I hope it does sever their connection at least slightly.

By: ADragonDreaming881

Part I: Keefoster Hope Argument
Keeper Rant

12:58 am

November 6th

I don’t know exactly what happened yet- but. I respect Shannon all the more for it. Think about it from a writing standpoint. There are two books left. If she was to crush a ship and choose for certain now, she would loose the entire fan base that is centered around ships (either Fitzphie or Keefoster). It would also resolve part of the plot that doesn’t need to be resolved now. AND the last two books wouldn’t feel the same.

Now secondly- she can’t just PICK a ship. If she was to just pick, half the fandom wouldn’t understand. No, she has to show them why a ship won’t work and why another is better. Else they’ll feel betrayed (like we do rn). She needs everyone on one team- and if she shows how one relationship fails, then that will happen.

(Now, if Shannon CRUSHES a ship and writes the ending unnaturally, that’s different)

It’s like what her editor, a self proclaimed sokeefe fan, said about the Fitzphie hug scene on Twitter- “sometimes being an editor mean sacrificing for the reader’s needs (emphasis on *needs*), like edit notes for @SW_Messenger re: Fitzphie hug scene #teamkeefe”. The readers WANT more of their ship; they NEED a good resolution. I think Shannon is smarter than we give her credit for and understands that.

November 8th, 7:30-

See my point? If she was to just pick Keefoster, Fitzphie fans would never understand. Like Keefoster fans don’t right now. She can’t just pick one over the other and let the other guy be like “never mind I don’t like her anymore”. She has to let the ship sail and show us why it won’t work. Basically, she’s let fitz develop a crush on Sophie, and Sophie on fitz. She can’t just poof those crushes away without seeming unnatural. She has to show us, AND show the characters themselves in the books!! Sophie’s crush isn’t just going to go away and her suddenly wake up and see reason. Something has to happen. And if she dates Fitz, then something happens and they both see why it doesn’t work, and then she isn’t blinded by him and sees that Keefe has been there all along, now THAT will be a satisfying ending. And if Keefe remains her patient friend even while she’s with Fitz, that shows a lot about Keefe’s character and will pull Fitzphie to at least LIKE him.

Hypothetically, which one is better for suspense?


 * 1) Keefoster happens in book seven and they stay a happy couple through the rest of the books.
 * 2) Fitzphie happens and they stay a happy couple through the rest of the books
 * 3) Nothing happens to end any ships, but the triangle continues for two books and suddenly in the last book a ship happens out of the blue and one ship just randomly fades
 * 4) Fitzphie happens, Keefe is heartbroken but remains her constant friend, Fitzphie continues, Keefe suffers, Fitzphie ends, Sophie realizes he was there all along and feels awful and then they live happily ever after, and Keefe knows she’ll only choose him from then on bc Fitzphie had its sail and sunk

Think about it. Two more books. The potential is endless. Also, this is key-

You can’t continue with a couple in a series along with an unresolved love triangle.

THEY CANT COEXIST PEACEFULLY.

If there’s a love triangle, and a couple gets together two books before the end, and the other guy still likes her, that couple is not going to stay together!!! Are Fitzphies thinking?!! If they know anything about writing they should be worried!! Now if Keefoster has happened this book, I would be blissfully happy for a few months and then I’d pick up on the hints. And be scared. Really scared. Unless she suddenly erases all feelings of Sophie from Keefe’s mind, which would be unnatural and awful writing especially when you consider how she built up to it with the “until she was ready for more”, then it’s kind of inevitable that Fitzphie will break up. (Not to mention “I will wear her down someday. I’m sneaky like that.”)

Trust me. Love triangles don’t just resolve themselves. Shannon needed to do this to us. And she has a plan.

Very last piece of evidence- the fact that Liesa Abrams, her editor, said that she was sacrificing for the NEEDS of the readers. Just letting Fitzphie happen would be the WANTS of the readers. But I think needs implies and supports my theory. If you fell someone you’re “giving them what they need, not what they want” that usually implies that they’re not going to like it but it’ll help them in the long run. I think she understands what Shannon is doing. Her use of “need” has puzzled me even before flashback, as she seems to be implying we need Fitzphie. But no- I think her use of “need” is crucial.

In defense of the head vs heart theory:

Shannon does not have to put anything in the books.

Shannon did not have to tell us what Lord Cassius's theory was.

Shannon did not have to make enhancing empaths reveal heart emotions.

Shannon did not even have to make heart emotions.

Shannon did not have to let Keefe feel her heart emotions.

Shannon did not have to have Sophie glance at him at that moment.

Shannon did not have to have Keefe bring it up again.

Shannon did not have to have Sophie tell Dex "So your head may be telling you one thing, but deep down, the rest of you wants something else"

Shannon did not have to add "Until she was ready for more" or "I'll wear her down someday" or "Team Foster-Keefe is going to win".

Shannon did not have to let Flashback end like that. (Shannon did not have to strategically place all of those matchmaking discussions throughout flashback.)

'''Yet..... she did.'''

I'll let that speak for itself.

Quote from argument-  "Well, actually having "no" argument as you said is much better than having a faulty one." I disagree very much. Having no argument is very bad news, because we actually have an argument. Based on things in the book that are not coincedence. If Fitzphie is endgame, there should be signs. Foreshadowing. And what should scare you guys is we have them, and you don't. (At least, if they're there someone should've found them by now. It should be easy.)

Trust me on this-  If Fitzphie is endgame, the clues should be there. Unless... they're not.

Part II: Flashback Parents/Matchmaking Theory

SamSerene68's Arguments
Sophie's feelings for Fitz initially started based on his looks, and I think that's what persuaded her to spend more time with him. Also the fact that he is too a Telepath and because of Alden. With Keefe though, she notices he's good looking, but they really only start getting close in Exile. She starts spending time with him because they have a mutual problem and want to fix it together...not because she thinks he's 'cute.' And she spends time with him after Exile because she starts to like the real Keefe, not just because of his ability or his looks. Also, Fitz shuts everyone except for immediate family out when something happens, even Sophie, and I know, he apologizes profusely afterwards with gifts and everything...but Fitz can't control himself when he's mad. No matter how much he tries to prevent it, it just might happen again, and the only thing he can do it apologize afterwards. Plus, Sophitz has only been through one major hurdle, that was Exile, and it didn't go so well. Sokeefe, though, even after Keefe unknowingly put Sophie in danger numerous times,and even betrayed them, she didn't stop trusting him. And she's the only one who's seen the other side of him, the broken one. Also, in Flashback, Fitz says he started to like her around the time they joined the Black Swan, whereas, with Keefe, it's obvious he's like her from book 2, maybe even book 1. Okay last point. When Sophie's around Fitz, she's a little too self-conscious. For example, in Neverseen, when she thought about telling Fitz she liked him, she was worried about his reaction, and she even thought he might laugh. This proves that Sophie isn't always sure about what Fitz will say, do, or think, hence...she doesn't know him well enough. With Keefe, she can tell when he's about to do something reckless, like in Neverseen, after Keefe got the memory about the Lodestar initiative back and locked himself up in his room, Sophie stayed up and waited for Keefe to come out of his room, because she knew he was going to try and fix things on his own...by going to Ravagog alone. She then convinces him to do otherwise, and this is the same vice-versa. Keefe always knows when she needs calming down, and sends her mental breezes. So I think Keefe and Sophie just balance each other out, and bring out the good in each other.

Any plot or relationship holes? Please feel free to point them out.

-SamSerene68