Board Thread:New on Lost Cities Keeper Wiki/@comment-2605:E000:1C00:40BD:4542:7CE:FA82:FB61-20190606142423/@comment-216.139.2.247-20191112103219

And to fandom user, I'm going to take your format because it's really constructive and polite, and I really appreciate that.

1) Let's face it- Fitz's anger isn't great, but we can't say Keefe hasn't done that either. Take Neverseen, for example. Sophie had to hide things from Keefe and break her promise for the sake of Keefe's everyday wellbeing during a really difficult time. Keefe found out and didn't take it well. He shunned everyone and only caved with the presence of Sophie, and even sometimes, he didn't cave with Sophie nearby. This is not something the team should have to go through, and this definitely doesn't help Sophie at all. There was a reasonable reason (whoops) why Sophie has to hide it from him, and the fact that Keefe doesn't see that and shuns everyone does demonstrate anger. It was even taken on those who didn't have anything to do with whatever happened. Keefe was being unreasonable, and I think that we should face that. When Flashback wasn't released yet, I'm fairly sure Fitz only took out his anger on Sophie once- Exile. In Flashback, the reason he got angry often was due to his echo. Yet everyone kept saying how Fitz has anger issues. We need to see that Keefe isn't a guy with perfect emotional control either, so Fitz having anger issues doesn't speak to me, personally, as a reason to ship Sokeefe, however it is a valid reason why Fitz isn't good for Sophie. I guess she can go to the pockets for comfort (some other user said something about sopockets I forgot who)

So that was long, but here's a shorter version:

Fitz doesn't have emotional control so people hate fitz

Keefe also doesn't have emotional control but no one hates him

Therefore, Sophie should go to the pockets, who do have emotional control

Hihihi nia still ships Fitz because she thinks it's a good ship.

[...]

3) Cognates are development. This comes down to how much Sophie and fitz must trust each other, and lets remember the times others have said their bond was abnormally strong. This is development. This is relationship develp[ment (woops). Part of why Sophie is being pressured for her secret is because Fitz wants their cognate relationship to develop, which wasn't happening that much over nightfall. Fitz probably already knew that that was her secret, but wanted Sophie to tell him because this develops their trust even more.

[...]

5) Fitz doesn't like to be acknowledged as "wonderboy"

In flashback, he does say that he thinks he's had it too lightly. He points to everyone whose been injured in some way: dex looked down, Sophie suffering as one of the elves, biana getting scarred by mirrors, Keefe living with a neverseen mother and abusive dad, tam and linh with equally abusive parents and sent to exillium, Wylie literally orphaned. He is humble, he says he isn't perfect and he's saying he's had it too lightly. Keep in mind this was after the aleurthrapleura whatever you spell it thing stung him in the chest. This isn't exactly light. Hey there! I'm really glad to see someone finally responded directly to my points, lol. I love open, respectful debate, and I really appreciate seeing other people's take on my arguments! (Plus, I'm trying to be as open as possible to Fitzphie, so lol, yeah.)

First off, thanks for the compliment about the format being constructive and polite! I have to constantly remind myself not to get too heated (I'm a naturally passionate shipper), so knowing that I actually accomplished that is great!

So, I kinda just wanted to provide feedback on some of your points- I look forward to your counter-counter-counter-argument if you do post one~! Lol, it would be great to actually have a constructive debate on this.

1) Okie dokie, so the topic of Fitz's 'anger issues' quote-unquote. This has kind of been a really touchy subject for a lot of shippers, but I think I posted something about this somewhere else in response to a fandom user called Chloe- lemme see if I can find that and build off of it:

"Everyone reacts to hard times diffrently, and some people lash out, but that was only once, and in Flashback, he had a reason. His brother betrayed him, ruined his family name, probably was among the elves that kidnapped and killed his crush, and people are letting him off the hook, just because he doesn't remember it? He had a right to be angry, and it was especailly hard for him, because of the echoes, he can't express his emotions, either. [...] -Chloe"

'Those are really really good points! I agree that Fitz definitely had every right to be angry. Alvar ruined a lot of aspects of his life, and he's his brother for crying out loud! So yeah, I don't blame Fitz for lashing out the way he did. His 'anger issues' for lack of a better term, don't really bother me. But I do think that they kind of exist. When Alden's mind broke, Fitz, by his own words, trashed all his own stuff. He punched Alvar in the face while he was unconscious (he deserved it, but kicking a guy when he's down is something that makes me cringe, even if it's well-deserved). And there have been several other instances where he reacted with anger.' 'So I do think that Fitz has.... 'anger issues'? I don't know, that seems a little too strong, but I can't think of a better way to put it. However, I highly, highly doubt that Fitz's 'anger issues' would do any real harm, and I firmly believe that he would never hurt anyone he cares about or anything like that (and he only ever ruined his own stuff, aside from Alvar's award, but he let Sophie do the honors with that). I think that it is a personal flaw, but it's not reason enough for people to target Fitz the way they do, I think. He's never done anything that bad. He got angry. He reacted how he naturally would. I'm not a fan of the fact that Fitz's go-to coping emotion is anger, but I still love Fitzy, and I don't think it's a valid reason for Fitzphie to be a 'bad ship.

'So in some ways, I agree with you, Chloe. ^-^'

~JAKS (Just Another Keefoster Shipper)

Okay,' yeah, so 'that was what I said before- and I still stand by it. But I do want to address some of your specific points. Again, I have not read Flashback, so I don't know anything about Fitz's echo, but based on the info up til Nightfall, here's what I got: So... Fitz getting angry doesn't bother me. Not in the slightest. He has every right to be angry at Alvar and other things that I'm less aware of, and I know that Keefe and Sophie- I mean, really Sophie too- have gotten just as, or more, angry. But what I think bothers a lot of people (not so much me honestly idk I think he's fine) is not the fact that Fitz gets angry, it's the way he deals with that anger. Unlike the other characters, Fitz's deals with his anger through physical expression of it, a.k.a, violence. (Some people might consider Sophie's Inflicting violence too but I don't think it counts since she doesn't have completely control over it all the time.) Yes, Keefe did get angry too (though I would argue that it was justified on an emotional level- not on a logical one, though.), and when he found out Sophie lied to him, he yelled and stormed out. But just later that night, he did give a sign of his forgiveness (Window Slumber Party #2), even if he wasn't ready to talk yet. He stewed for a while and brooded by himself, and while yes, that is unhealthy, it primarily affects him, and not those around him. When he thought that Lord Cassius was part of the Neverseen, he admitted to Sophie that he wanted to throw goblin throwing stars at all Cassius' favorite stuff- wanted to, but didn't. And when he found out that it was actually Lady Gisela, he yelled at her, but any violent actions against her from that point on where either part of their plan or in self defense, and after the initial shock he mainly blamed himself for not noticing her betrayal sooner. So yeah, Keefe does get really angry- I won't deny that. But as far as I've read, he angers much less easily than Fitz, and his reactions are much tamer. (Also, could ou give me specific examples of times when Keefe took his anger out on people who had nothing to do with it? Because I can't remember any, lol.)

Fitz, on the other hand, has reacted with immediate violence on several occasions- such as when he punched Alvar in the face while he was unconscious, which I mentioned before, and when Alden's mind broke and Fitz trashed all his own stuff (though I'm willing to forgive that one, since it was only his own things). Also, remember in the beginning of Lodestar, when Sophie was trying to talk to him about Keefe, and Fitz punched one of Grady and Edaline's throw pillows so hard some of its feather stuffing came out and floated in the air? I mean, that was just punching a pillow, so I'm not going to hold that against him too much, but it does show how easily he's angered, and it makes me worried that sometime later he'll react with impulsive violence and do something he'll really regret.

So in summary, yes, neither Keefe nor Fitz have good emotional control. But Keefe doesn't have... physically expressive raging tendencies like Fitz does. (Again, I personally don't care too much about Fitz's 'anger issues', but I'm trying to articulate why so many people seem to care. I love Keefe, but I still like Fitz- everyone's got their flaws.)

2) Okie doke, on to the topic of Cognates and development! I... personally don't feel like them becoming Cognates created much relationship development, because, as the reader, I didn't see any development. I mean, theoretically, yes, they're relationship could have become a lot more trust-based and understanding, but if it did, Shannon didn't let me know, you know? As for their bond being 'abnormally strong,' while that is a good point for Fitzphie, it doesn't really have much to do with development, I think- it has more to do with mental compatibility. Yes, Fitz and Sophie are very compatible- which is why I shipped them in the beginning. But I didn't see the author using that compatibility to further their relationship, so my interest kinda died, if you know what I mean (urk, you probably don't, I'm practically speaking gibberish at this point, sorry lol). As for your point about Fitz pressuring her to share her secret because he wanted that development- I'm in 100% agreement with that. Fitz has obviously desperately been craving some relationship/Cognate development poor boi (where I am in the series anyway), but the fact that he needs to ask for it is actually one of my points on why I like Keefoster more- Sophie and Keefe kind of just naturally happened, without prompting from any characters, or unnatural circumstances invented by the author to force them to confide in each other. It almost happened on its own, which is how I like my ships to happen. From my experience as a reader and amateur author, forced ships are bad. Don't do them, authors! ''You hear me?!?? '''dOn'T dO iTtTtTt!! 'So that's my take. Again, it's just my opinion! #DontHurtMe!

3) Okie dokie, last one! This is the one where you said Fitz doesn't like being acknowledged as a 'Wonderboy.' My answer to this one is simple- I completely agree! I think I literally said in my previous argument that it's isn't Fitzy's fault that he's a great guy! And it's definitely not his fault that he had a pretty good life for a time- though yeah, he is experiencing some hardships now. I don't think him being a "wonderboy" is a negative thing! (On a personal note, I do prefer more fundamentally flawed and dynamic characters like Keefe, just because they're interesting character studies- plus HiLaRiOuS- but that's besides the point.)

So yeah, those are the points I just wanted to touch on. Let me know what you think! Lol, am I coming across as desperate for stimulating debates? I think I am...

~JAKS (Just Another Keefoster Shipper)